Correct Half Mast Etiquette

Rebecca & Steve said:
To me, flags, ensigns, uniforms (of whatever description) are all of a similar vein. They allow people to demonstrate respect, allegiance, loyalty, whatever ...........
Sometimes that loyalty can be to a bad cause (let's not get all Godwin here) - but more often it is a simple way of showing loyalty to a cause that is important to the beholder - and that is the problem, the importance to the beholder is not often appreciated by those outside.
But should that matter?
Clansmen have particular tartans - they mean little to those outside the clan but may mean everything to those who have a clan history. I respect that fact.
Ask any soldier what the regimental 'colours' mean to him. I've never been a soldier but I can still appreciate the importance.
What does the Silver Fern mean to an All Black player when he grips it during the Hakka? Probably a similar sentiment to just before the Gallipoli landings I'm guessing.
I do not wear a kilt but I respect those who choose to do so *
My military kit (and especially the cap badge) meant a lot to me.
I think that the trousers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police look a tad silly - but I still respect the importance to the force.
Can we not just show a bit of respect and understanding that these things might not be important to us - but they are most certainly important to those connected to the history of the flag, tartan, fern, whatever.

* No kilt, but we do have a family tartan.
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In what way does the flag a few feet wrong indicate lack of respect? Worrying about it seems more like serious obsessive compulsive behaviour fairly far out on the spectrum.

The British monarchy is part of the tourist/celebrity industry rather than anything useful - and here I am being kind in my judgement - they can fly the flag how they like but the rest of us simply wont really notice or care.
 
The British monarchy is part of the tourist/celebrity industry rather than anything useful - and here I am being kind in my judgement - they can fly the flag how they like but the rest of us simply wont really notice or care.
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I think that sums it up very well for a lot of people including me.

Lots of people feel differently about it and that's fine too as long as it's left as that .
 
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this and there are strongly held opinions on both sides. Can I suggest that, on this occasion, folk on both sides of the argument consider
... that much of our use of flags today derives from their use in the Navy
... that the Duke of Edinburgh was proud of his position as a naval officer
... that, as a naval officer, he would be likely to be keen to follow naval flag etiquette
... that following such etiquette is therefore in itself a mark of respect to him.
 
roblpm said:
I think you are on dangerous ground here. It's a really depressing aspect of the UK that a lot of people are more concerned with this sort of thing than the plight of the poor, education for all, a decent economy etc. I was talking to someone from South America and she said "you love your traditions". I pointed out that I don't................
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Hey, I'm the one saying there are more important things to worry about than the exact height of some flags. I'm with you!
 
Thistle said:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this and there are strongly held opinions on both sides. Can I suggest that, on this occasion, folk on both sides of the argument consider
... that much of our use of flags today derives from their use in the Navy
... that the Duke of Edinburgh was proud of his position as a naval officer
... that, as a naval officer, he would be likely to be keen to follow naval flag etiquette
... that following such etiquette is therefore in itself a mark of respect to him.
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That is a perfectly good point, but I think it misses something important. Expressions of grief and remorse are a personal thing and they are determined by the person who is grieving. So if someone wants to celebrate the dearly departed's naval career with a vaguely naval display, why not? The issue arise when they attempt to tell other people how they should express their feelings, because that is absolutely none of their business. Carried to extremes, that attitude led to the quasi-fascist grief hysteria and virtue signalling when Diana died.

So, flag fans, I suggest a compromise. You don't tell me where to fly my flags and I won't tell you where to stick yours.
 
All this stuff with how to fly,wear,drape,fly,whatever puts me of any form of flag on the boat.
I do not plan on going abroad.
The exception being a pirate one for the grandkids.
 
Interesting thread which courts the usual controversy.

I would simply say that in my opinion there are many traditions and customs in our society, and there is a certain pleasure seeing those who respect them, also doing them well. They are part of our history and heritage and life is in fact full of them. Many of us in our busy lives are not willing to take the time or trouble, which to me seems fine, but I also think we would be poorer for the absence of those that do. I think the element those opposed to, is some of these traditions give our life colour, and they certainly do no harm as long as they dont become divisive. Be it Trooping of the Colour, or Remberance Day, both events and hardly comparable with the height of your flag, but never the less pagentry and history which would not be the same were it not conducted with respect to all the traditions of the past.

It is also a shame it is divisive. I have heard more controvery over the various stern flags than I care to recall. The purest know exactly what flag the yacht is entitled to fly, whether it has been correctly defaced etc., and again I love to hear about the history and the etiquette. However, I also think there is a line crossed when one party frowns on the others lack of knowledge of the convention. It is difficult to understand taking even the most generous line why if you are flying the white ensign on your yacht but not a member of the Squadron that this is capable of offending another yacht owner, but inevitsably it will and does.

For me its rather like PNP, if it is your thing, for whatever reason, fine, and if you wish to spend your money in that way, why not. I love someone I knew who had a very very expensive number plate on his Rolls which was the first three letters of his surname. I said, "you must of paid a fortune for that". He laughed and said it was a couple of pounds in Halfords. Days gone by, but he was such a well known local celebrity he was never stopped and even the local constabulary knew him well. I guess no one ever thought to check. :)

One other story which for me is at the other end of the scale. Local golf club, not especailly posh. Long long member who wanted nothing more in his life than win the Club champ. Well he is coming down the 17th almost in front of the clubhouse a few strokes up. The Club Sec strides towards him (he is probably thinking to give him a pat on the back), but whispers in his ear, old boy your shirt has come out your pants, youve been a member long enough to know the Club rules, please would you tuck yourself in. Of course he fell to bits, didnt winner and hasnt since. He was a stickler to himself for the rules, and a complete gentlemen and in the excitement of the moment hadnt even noticed. A lifes ambition destroyed in a few words.
 
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oldmanofthehills said:
W hen a member of my yacht club died at sea, the club flag was flown half mast and alerted us to the loss of a member. I cant remember and I expect no one cared how high it was. We asked, then greived

I hear an elderly playboy has died at 99. Sad for his family if hardly unexpected, but hardly a much of a matter for any other citizen, and I doubt from what I heard he could care about exact height anyway if you do chose to fly such
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As a Top Brass Naval officer he would know precisely the correct protocols, and as a Senior member of the Royal family would expect people who should know to get it right. He was deeply knowledgeable on a wide range of subjects, and became involved in an extensive range of projects, careful always not to upstage his wife the Queen. I cannt think of a less appropriate epithet than 'elderly playboy', whatever your view on Royalty.
 
oldharry said:
As a Top Brass Naval officer he would know precisely the correct protocols, and as a Senior member of the Royal family would expect people who should know to get it right. He was deeply knowledgeable on a wide range of subjects, and became involved in an extensive range of projects, careful always not to upstage his wife the Queen. I cannt think of a less appropriate epithet than 'elderly playboy', whatever your view on Royalty.
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He was a left over from a bygone era, marrying into money and more royalty. He can no more be responsible for his ancestors than you or I but he can be responsible for the life choices he made and who he married. His son as Duke of Cornwall controls via the Duchy of Cornwall much of the land and economic life of that region. Deeply unfortunate rather than quaint and a symbol of the feudal division of our lands, so our Monarchy is a source of deprivation to some. Neither the Duke of E or Duke of Cornwall are/were bad men in themselves, but neither has had to hard work for their crust and playing at being a naval officer doesnt quite count. Maybe playboy was harsh. He served the queen and carried out state functions as required and did it well, but beyond that he was a privileged lotus eater.

I have little respect for top brass navy either. They played around in big ships safe away from danger in the last big war while the war was won by hostilities only ratings, volunteers and naval reserves, many in converted whaling boats and trawlers. I doubt flag etiquette preyed on their minds in the deep atlantic.
 
oldmanofthehills said:
He was a left over from a bygone era, marrying into money and more royalty. He can no more be responsible for his ancestors than you or I but he can be responsible for the life choices he made and who he married. His son as Duke of Cornwall controls via the Duchy of Cornwall much of the land and economic life of that region. Deeply unfortunate rather than quaint and a symbol of the feudal division of our lands, so our Monarchy is a source of deprivation to some. Neither the Duke of E or Duke of Cornwall are/were bad men in themselves, but neither has had to hard work for their crust and playing at being a naval officer doesnt quite count. Maybe playboy was harsh. He served the queen and carried out state functions as required and did it well, but beyond that he was a privileged lotus eater.

I have little respect for top brass navy either. They played around in big ships safe away from danger in the last big war while the war was won by hostilities only ratings, volunteers and naval reserves, many in converted whaling boats and trawlers. I doubt flag etiquette preyed on their minds in the deep atlantic.
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I am neither a committed royalist nor a republican , and I don’t have a flag to fly at half mast/staff, but I do find the tone of your post unpleasant. Big chip on your shoulder about others better off than yourself?
 
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Iliade said:
Whatever else he was, he saw action as a WWII naval officer and for that alone respect is due.
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Shame that the merchant service hardly ever got any recognition at all until fairly recently with peashooters for a defence. My old dad was called called up from the P & O in 1939 as a deck officer served on the Atlantic and Russian convoys throughout the whole war. This same sort of thing can be said for millions of others in all the Services and civilian populations. I don't see the above connection.

I see the situation in our country now, similar to the election after WW2 when Churchill failed to gain power. It showed up inequalities and unearned unnecessary privilege that only previous generations were prepared to put up with. For instance, us play sailors, the current system of only being able to fly a certain ensign if you are a member of a certain club or that some member did more in the war than anybody else in another club . This sort of thing is
repeated in many areas of our society.

Some traditions are worth keeping to give our lives stability, meaning, and thankfullness

Why can't we chuck out all the one's that don't serve us anymore ?
 
What a sickening display of disrespect, inverted snobbery and arrogance that in some cases borders on the psycopathic.
I'd never have imagned something as anodyne as flags could produce such astonishing levels of venom and nastiness. I now wish I hadn't started this thread.
I'd imagined that yachtsmen were respectable, thoughtful and above all good mannered people. Clearly there's a vociferous and fanatical anarchic, anti-establishment faction here that I hadn't recognised before. There's seems to be something about this forum that makes some people lose their manners altogether and revel in displaying the uglier and spiteful sides of their nature.
To think that a simple display of mourning with a flag could generate such venom and unpleasantness.
I would never have believed there could be such a such a fanatically negative response to mere flags - nor such extreme rejection of simple good manners and scorn and ridicule for those who retain them.
What a sad, sad world we live in.
 
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Slowboat35 said:
What a sickening display of disrespect, inverted snobbery and arrogance that in some cases borders on the psycopathic.
I'd never have imagned something as anodyne as flags could produce such astonishing levels of venom and nastiness. I now wish I hadn't started this thread.
I'd imagined that yachtsmen were respectable, thoughtful and above all good mannered people. Clearly there's a vociferous and fanatical anarchic, anti-establishment faction here that I hadn't recognised before.
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Oh, don't be silly. All you're seeing is a perfectly natural reaction to the pompous little homily you chose to favour us with. Respectable, thoughtful and well-mannered people do not seek to dictate to others how they should respond to a death, and if failure to follow tradition in flying a flag at half mast is the most vociferously anarchic and anti-establishment behaviour you have encountered, thank your lucky stars for a remarkably sheltered life.

As it happens I had enormous respect for the old boy, but I will not have some Bufton-Tufton (ret'd) of Tonbridge Wells (disgusted) dictate to me how I should mark his passing.

Hugs and kisses

JD
 
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Resolution said:
I am neither a committed royalist nor a republican , and I don’t have a flag to fly at half mast/staff, but I do find the tone of your post unpleasant. Big chip on your shoulder about others better off than yourself?
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I have no chip on my shoulder against for those better off. I could easily earn nearly twice as much with some companies, but I like every glass of wine or slice of food on my table to be honestly earned, and I doont get paid that badly (for an engineer).

I am mostly republican, and as Seadog said it is the idea of monarchy that hold us back, that pomp and circumstance, not the individuals.

And as others have said the glory and praise is much misplaced. The dead merchantmen drown in the convoys were barely honoured.
 
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