Cornish Cruising has incredibly safe boats.

[dt4134]

This sort of incident will become more commonplace unless something is done to tighten up the standards of certification.
Day skipper is not an attendance course, you are supposed to reach a required standard but all to often the tickets are handed out at the end of a course because its easier than failing a student.
This is not just confined to day skippers. Certain yachtmaster examiners are also awarding tickets to people who clearly do not have the skill set or experience to hold the qualification, but again it is far easier to pass than fail a student.
You now have people with the correct piece of paper to charter yachts but are lacking in ability and the all important experience.

Do you have any information that is relevent to this incident that is behind your post?

YM's article reckon the responsible skipper had 30 years experience, although that in itself doesn't mean anything conclusively. Didn't mention anything about any certs.

 

[Pro Skipper]

Do you have any information that is relevent to this incident that is behind your post?

YM's article reckon the responsible skipper had 30 years experience, although that in itself doesn't mean anything conclusively. Didn't mention anything about any certs.

Nothing relevent to this event, just an observation over the last few years.

 

[snooks]

Nothing relevent to this event, just an observation over the last few years.

And your point was?

That qualified people with experience can make mistakes, or unqualified people with more experience can make mistakes?

That qualifications are pointless because they don't mean anything? Yet everyone in your opinion should be qualified?

o <-that's a circle, keep following it until you find the end

 

[dt4134]

Nothing relevent to this event, just an observation over the last few years.

If it's irrelevent to this thread, delete your comment and start a new thread. You might still get accusations of being a troll but if you engage in the debate (a more effective trolling strategy anyway) they'll go away.

 

[Pro Skipper]

And your point was?

That qualified people with experience can make mistakes, or unqualified people with more experience can make mistakes?

That qualifications are pointless because they don't mean anything? Yet everyone in your opinion should be qualified?

o <-that's a circle, keep following it until you find the end

Sorry, I thought it was obvious.
You need a qualification to bareboat charter.
If people with a lack of the required experience and ability get the ticket more incidents will occur. The standard has slipped.

 

[dt4134]

Sorry, I thought it was obvious.
You need a qualification to bareboat charter.
If people with a lack of the required experience and ability get the ticket more incidents will occur. The standard has slipped.

You don't. Many charter companies will take people without tickets. One charter company owner I spoke to reckoned it took about 15 to 20 mins of conversation to come to a conclusion, and he hadn't yet (at that time) been wrong.

 

[sighmoon]

Sorry, I thought it was obvious.
You need a qualification to bareboat charter.

I've chartered twice with no qualifications (though one abroad wrote me and wifey an ICC)

 

[Ubergeekian]

Watch what happens to the top of your hand, it pivots at your wrist. Soooooo if you imagine you fingers pointing down to be the leading edge of the keel, the front before the sump will be pulled down, and aft of the sump would twist off.

That sounds like a good and likely description to me. Alas it directly contradicts the "no moment" theory which I understand (damn snow, haven't got to a newsagent) YM is putting forwards.

 

[Captn D]

I trust "Pro Skipper" was not suggesting that one needs a well tested RYA certificate to miss well charted rocks! Mistakes are made and accidents do happen. Methinks, the real unforgivable was not recognizing one has hit one and then not taking appropriate action; like sailing 60 miles back to base and not mentioning the fact to anyone who might just be a little bit interested! Comes under "Common Sense".

 

[sighmoon]

The charterers who hit the rock have been pilloried on this thread, but it seems probable to me that they didn't know.

Biggest clue they had no idea was that they then sailed back from the Scillies. Leaving aside moral scrupals (which they may or may not have), they would have needed much bigger Cajones than most of us to attempt the voyage if they knew the condition of the boat.

How could they not know?

The yacht clearly didn't stop when the keel did - so it would probably not have felt like a grounding. They might have heard a bang but attributed it to something else.

There was no sign of internal damage.

 

[Seajet]

I and a lot of people have wondered about their choosing to make it back, but I simply cannot believe they didn't know; even a clean shear would have been eye-popping, and there was direct damage to the hull from rocks as well.

Remember it's very clear water at the Scillies; I reckon they strayed into rocks, felt the bang, looked over the side and saw they were off course ( to put it mildly ) and right among rocks, then on discovering they were still afloat - and upright, I suspect they knew something had happened, probably not that the whole keel had gone - they brought the boat back, probably being careful, then hot-footed it after regaining their deposit.

Well worth pillorying !

 

[sighmoon]

I reckon .... I suspect .... probably ....probably

Well worth pillorying !

Good job they're still anonymous.

I wonder how much the deposit was? Leaving morality out of it for a moment, it would have to be a suitcase full for me to set sail from the Scillies in a boat I thought was in any way unsafe. Even then, making it back doesn't mean they get to keep their money - I would have thought CC have recourse to the courts.

 

[Seajet]

As I wasn't there and Data Recorders aren't generally fitted on yachts, anything at all mentioned in these forums has to be conjecture; I'd say my suggested scenario fits the facts as far as I/we know.

As Jimi, who among a few others on this forum has seen the boat after the accident, reports direct hull damage, it seems very fair to assume ( I agree the most dangerous word in human language, but it works here ) that along with clear water the crew knew they'd 'interfaced' with rocks !

So it would have been the decent and honest, not to mention seamanlike, thing to do to report this on returning the boat.

As to recovering the deposit, I agree only the most crazed loon would undertake the trip if they knew the true condition of the boat; it seems reasonable to suppose they knew they'd screwed up and caused damage, but not how much.

I would be very surprised if they don't lose a lot more than the sum of their deposit in the long term.

 

[snooks]

Remember it's very clear water at the Scillies; 8< snip >8

Well worth pillorying !

Water is only really clear on a sunny day, otherwise it will reflect the clouds in the sky and generally be too dark.

Unless you were on board I don't think you can speculate about the charterers experienced that day. And what you suspect isn't grounds for pillorying.

Why not dust off the dunking stool and give the charterer a fair hearing?

 

[Seajet]

I've done plenty of sailing in clear water; if rocks are that close you can see them !

A dunking stool is not required, but some form of proper investigation and / or legal action certainly is.

In circumstances like this, the entire crew will not keep quiet forever, it may take time but a personal account will eventually surface.

I happen to know the real story behind a famous racing boat 'losing' her keel; my then fiancee was a friend of a crew member, who recounted the truth but only in private.

It took around twenty years for that truth to properly surface ( literally ! ), which was smartly followed by legal action, redressing the balance in an unfair original verdict.

 

[TiggerToo]

I've done plenty of sailing in clear water; if rocks are that close you can see them !

A dunking stool is not required, but some form of proper investigation and / or legal action certainly is.

In circumstances like this, the entire crew will not keep quiet forever, it may take time but a personal account will eventually surface.

I happen to know the real story behind a famous racing boat 'losing' her keel; my then fiancee was a friend of a crew member, who recounted the truth but only in private.

It took around twenty years for that truth to properly surface ( literally ! ), which was smartly followed by legal action, redressing the balance in an unfair original verdict.

Ok, but who would benefit from this?

 

[Boomshanka]

snip...

As I wasn't there and Data Recorders aren't generally fitted on yachts, anything at all mentioned in these forums has to be conjecture; snip...

Perhaps CC had the foresight to look back through the data log on the chartplotter (if there was one fitted)... it might just have been as good as a data recorder in terms of time and place.

Perhaps also chart companies will tuck a 'SPOT tracker' into a locker somewhere pinging out position every 10 minutes or so... could be a cheap way of keeping an eye on where folk are... just a thought

 

[Ubergeekian]

A Helpful Person has been kind enough to send me a copy of the article in question. Having read it I have three responses ...

1. I am surprised that the failure was found to be ductile- the picture of the failure surface of one bolt looks brittle to me. However, I am sure that the lab got it right so
2. I am even more surprised that the keel managed to move enough to shear all the bolts without ripping off that sump. I think there must have been a pretty complicated movement - probably with a bit of twisting as well as sliding.
3. I can't believe that a properly designed, properly attached keel would come off in this way without causing a bang that would knock everyone on board off their feet.

Since we don't hear about the keels dropping off these boats on a regular basis, the design is probably fine. Something must have been wrong, though. There is more of this story to be told.

Thanks to Deep Throat for the article. Your identity is safe with me.

 

[Seajet]

Ubergeekian,

I agree 100% with what you say;( see, it can happen ! ) and I especially cannot reconcile a failure like that as ductile rather than brittle either...

For future use I think the suggestion of a position relayed to the office is a very good idea; even if not constantly monitored the knowledge it was there would prevent the more foolhardy moves.

As for 'who would an investigation / legal case serve ?... How about everyone on the sea !

Charter firms would be treated with more respect, any design snags would come to light, charterers would behave more sensibly - which may well put less strain on emergency services as well as any fellow users of the seas around...

 

[dt4134]

Ubergeekian,

I agree 100% with what you say;( see, it can happen ! ) and I especially cannot reconcile a failure like that as ductile rather than brittle either...

For future use I think the suggestion of a position relayed to the office is a very good idea; even if not constantly monitored the knowledge it was there would prevent the more foolhardy moves.

As for 'who would an investigation / legal case serve ?... How about everyone on the sea !

Charter firms would be treated with more respect, any design snags would come to light, charterers would behave more sensibly - which may well put less strain on emergency services as well as any fellow users of the seas around...

Even better than that you could put a CCTV camera in each cabin and one on the mast looking down. You could even get an underwater one and attach it to the keel.

And maybe you could beef up the debrief a bit too - for those that come back anyway. I mean what's a bit of Sodium Pentathol cost compared to the cost of a new keel.