Coppercoat Epoxy Nightmare

homer

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Planning a long live-aboard voyage, we thought it would be a good idea to Coppercoat the hull and, thereby, avoid anti-fouling costs for some years. In April 2008, we had the hull sandblasted and, whilst the hull was completely dry, decided that we might well apply some epoxy undercoat as well. To ensure compatibility, it seemed to a good idea to purchase Coppercoat’s own brand. The application was done “by the book”, all seemed well and off we set. Come September, a few small white spots appeared on the hull and it was clear that some of the coating had come away. By the following autumn (2011), there were numerous such spots. The boat was eventually lifted in late February 2012 when it became clear that there was a major failing in the coating. Much correspondence with Coppercoat had taken place and, as a “matter of goodwill”, they had supplied 2 packs of Coppercoat. This was half what I had requested and, it transpired, less than half of what was required. To cut a long story short, we were told that it was very likely that the first coat of epoxy had produced an “amine blush” which had prevented proper adhesion of the second layer. No satisfactory explanation for this materialised. Including the Coppercoat itself, we applied 7 coats of epoxy all under much the same, pretty much ideal, conditions. Only the first coat malfunctioned. There was, of course, no mention of the possibility of an amine blush in the directions; if there had been, it may have been recognised and dealt with. As it turned out, about 10,000 (yes, 10.000) delaminated spots had to be sanded out epoxied and re-coated with Coppercoat. As well as a huge amount of effort, there was the cost of a lift-out (450 Euro), 3 more packs of Coppercoat (about £250) plus tools and other materials. To add further stress, when the 3 further packs were ordered from the only Coppercoat agent in Turkey, it transpired that he did not have any. We had to wait 2 weeks for delivery so over-ran our re-launch date and were within one day of incurring further yard charges of 225 Euro for moving our boat so that the one behind could be launched. There is still a likelihood that the whole operation will have to be repeated if the, as yet, untreated areas similarly fail. Coppercoat assert that their epoxy (manufactured by 3M) has had widespread use without problems. However, as far as I know, it was originally made for the treatment of steel structures (such as gas rigs) and so I would be very interested to know if anyone else has experience of applying it to GRP hulls. And if anyone else is inclined to use this product, be very aware of what might happen.
 
No disrespect - had circumstances been different we may well have tried a self application ...
but the more I hear about "coppercoat" failing the more convinced I am that getting a "pro" to apply it is worthwhile. I don't normally do "pro" anything - because a Pro is just someone who is paid to do the job ... however, in this instance at least - using a team who are practised at applying the products seems to be the best way to get a successful result ...
 
Without mentioning names I know a very good team of pros that had a similar problem with that product, although it was patches that failed.
 
To balance the Pro/DIY application, I went the DIY route in 2005 using the ME100 epoxy under the CC and it has worked fine.
 
It suprises me that no mention was made in the instructions about amine blush. This is quite basic.

It' also "quite basic" that by no means all epoxies are susceptible to amine blush.

To homer: very sorry to learn of your misfortune. May I ask how long did you wait between the application of the primer and the application of Coppercoat?
 
It suprises me that no mention was made in the instructions about amine blush. This is quite basic.

Do the instructions on a bottle of minerla water warn that it may be wet.? As far as I know, all epoxies are vulnerable to amine blush if the conditions of application arent 100%. Certainl,y I had a professionally applied West epoxy coating that had to be removed and replaced because of amine blush. The yard had left the door to the shed open on a hot sunny day and that caused the problem.
 
Do the instructions on a bottle of minerla water warn that it may be wet.? As far as I know, all epoxies are vulnerable to amine blush if the conditions of application arent 100%. Certainl,y I had a professionally applied West epoxy coating that had to be removed and replaced because of amine blush. The yard had left the door to the shed open on a hot sunny day and that caused the problem.
Some epoxies are more prone to amine blush than others - West is well-known to be prone, but people will keep using it, despite this. Adherence to brands of epoxy is like a bl##dy religion.
My favourite for some time has been ABL Stevens General Purpose Expoxy, never had an amine blush problem (or any other kind of problem) with it in over 10 years - and that's using it in all manner of temperatures and humidities. If it ever lets me down, then I'll change brands. I believe Epiglass is also good.

For just about anything that you might want to know about epoxy:
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/
 
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It' also "quite basic" that by no means all epoxies are susceptible to amine blush.

To homer: very sorry to learn of your misfortune. May I ask how long did you wait between the application of the primer and the application of Coppercoat?

Macd, that was my first reaction, that perhaps the undercoat had been allowed to go totally dry. It must be still tacky I believe for the first coat of copper coat.
 
Do the instructions on a bottle of minerla water warn that it may be wet.? As far as I know, all epoxies are vulnerable to amine blush if the conditions of application arent 100%. Certainl,y I had a professionally applied West epoxy coating that had to be removed and replaced because of amine blush. The yard had left the door to the shed open on a hot sunny day and that caused the problem.

I think you're being a bit parochial here. I do indeed know that water is wet, but this is the first mention I have ever seen of amine blush.

Perhaps someone could enlighten us ignoramuses as to what it is, how it happens and what the symptoms are?
 
Yes Hoolie, When I said it was basic I meant to regular users of epoxies. I would be very suprised that (if the coppercoat product was suscepable to blushing) it was not mentioned very clearly in their instructions.
I forget just underwhat conditions blushing occurs but the result is that a waxy deposit can form on the cured surface this has to be washed off. Once clear of the deposit the surface will have to be scored with sand paper to give the next coat some physical adhesion.
I'm not sure about copper coat but coats of epoxy are best built up 'wet on wet' with each coat being applied when the previous one is still just tacky to get a real bond. If a coat dries completly then sometimes the blush may occur but it will always require some scoring in order to get at least a physical bond
 
Macd, that was my first reaction, that perhaps the undercoat had been allowed to go totally dry. It must be still tacky I believe for the first coat of copper coat.

In fact the opposite, Chris. If it's the primer I imagine it to be, it's solvent-based and needs a prolonged curing/drying time before the application of subsequent coats. I've used the stuff with entirely satisfactory results.
 
In fact the opposite, Chris. If it's the primer I imagine it to be, it's solvent-based and needs a prolonged curing/drying time before the application of subsequent coats. I've used the stuff with entirely satisfactory results.

ME100 is solvent free and must be overcoated next day.
ME primer-S is solvented and must be allowed to fully cure before applying coppercoat.

AS the OP suffered with amine blush, it must have been the solvent free so overcoating next day is correct.

It's usually associated with dew point problems. Not something I'd really worry about in Turkey in May.

To the OP did you start painting at 5 in the morning or something?
 
Change try for succeed please.;)

yup - I know of 1 person who has successfully applied coppercoat ... but for some reason then applied normal antifoul over the front 1/3rd(?) - I believe this is all gone and back to the proper stuff - again, applied by the owner ...

fastidious - I think that's the right term - yup - I think you need this attribute when applying the various concoctions associated with coppercoat - I'm not - so I'm glad we didn't ... as it can be a very expensive mistake if it goes wrong.

Pro's can also get it wrong - but at least you have some support (and comeback if required!) - so it would be prudent to find one who is good at the task ...
 
Pro's can also get it wrong - but at least you have some support (and comeback if required!) - so it would be prudent to find one who is good at the task ...

I had my boat coppercoated by a 'pro' recommended to me by Coppercoat. I am very pleased with the general result BUT after a year an area on the port side came off when pressure washed as described by the OP. Said 'pro' reapplied Coppercoat which came off again this year. The 'pro' then arranged with another to redo it again (this time correctly I believe/hope). To date the 'pro' has not recompensed either myself or the other contractor for the work (he even blamed the Bank Holiday for the money not clearing - it had never been put in!!!). The matter is not concluded yet so I will not post his name but I would suggest checking the 'pros' previous work before committing.

The 'bad' work was not done where I am currently based. The 'good' work was.
 
I know this does not help the OP with his problem but the DIY/Pro application issue keeps coming up. If a Pro subs out or uses cheap untrained staff you can easily finish up with the problems which dslittle tells us about. Yes you do have a recourse IF the Pro remains in business, but turning out bad work is an easy route to no work and then no business, you then have no recourse and are poorer!

However I will agree in some cases the DIY route can be just as disastrous. Some people are not safe painting a wall let alone applying something like Coppercoat. I remember just before I applied mine I was talking to someone in the yard. I was looking at the Coppercoat peeling off his hull as he complained bitterly how bad the product was. Yes it was DIY applied, but you could clearly see as he peeled off sheets of the stuff that the substrate was covered in paint, old anti foul and dirt. There was no way that application was going to work. A good example of the 5 'P's'.

If you have the skill, the patience (and common sense) to follow the application to the letter, then you will get a good job. If you are not up to it, yes do get a Pro to do it, but make sure the Pro is as good as his claims. The benefit of a forum like this that it is an easy route to people with a good reputation.
 
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