copperbot antifoul

[grafozz]

i had copperbot put on my cat when new 8 years ago and have re-coated 200mm around the waterline after 5 years , but this year ,in the med , it seems to have become a worm /weed magnet ,not working at all , so.. do i just start using hard antifoul on top ,cheap option, or re- coat again- £600 d i y i would say that i have had the best of the copperbot now , but still have the benefits of the epoxy base it was applied with for anti osmosis properties.

 

[Microspec]

You are lucky you did not use the product called PURE SEAL as in 8 years with the amount of marine growth it produces in just a month your boat would have sunk years ago!

 

[yoda]

Copperbot didn't stop osmosis on my boat, just added to the problems of rectifying it. It will however accept quite a few antifoulings without bothering to prime.

Yoda

 

[richardf]

Hello Grafozz. You could try sanding down the surface very lightly to expose new copper. This worked for me a few years ago. I'm not so sure about recoating the old material - see below.

I now have another problem. In 2002 I lightly sanded my then 8 year old Copperbot (the one now called Coppercoat, not the one now called Coppershield), and applied a further coat. (The boat was hauled for other reasons and I thought it was a good idea to take advantage of the chance to extend the life of the coating)

I hauled the boat this year, and found that the coating has many many tiny blisters, some of which have burst, and in some small areas it has peeled off. It is only the Copperbot which is damaged, the Gelshield which was applied underneath it is intact.

I would like to remove it completely and recoat the hull, but the coating is as hard as ever where it is not damaged, so very difficult to remove without gelcoat damage.

 

[gianenrico]

I would thouroughtly fine sand the existing (200/300 grain) and then recoat after 1 - 2 months drying period.
I suggest You mail directly to the company selling Copperboat now: they should know better.
I applied last summer in the Thyrrenian and, finger crossed, no problems up to now.
Cheers

 

[richardf]

Hello gianenrico,

I'm not sure if you are replying to me, to grafozz, or both of us.

Re. your application last summer, are you referring to a recoating or a first coating? Also, are you using Copperbot, Coppercoat, Coppershield, or another product? - I was told by Wessex Resins early this year that they no longer supply Copperbot. Do you have another supplier?

I already contacted the company (Aquarius Marine Coatings) who supplied my Copperbot in 1994 (they now call it Coppercoat), and also the company (Wessex Resins & Adhesives) who supplied Copperbot 2000 until recently, who told me to contact Marine and Industrial Sealants, who sell Coppershield.

Both Wessex Resins and Marine & Industrial Sealants said they had not come across the problem of blistering or peeling before. Both recommended stripping off the old coating completely. M & I also recommended a "primer" coat of West epoxy.

These seem to me "play it safe" recommendations, but entail a large amount of work and material, and I feel there could be a better solution.

In 2002 I understood Aquarius Marine to recommend (by telephone) the procedure I followed; light sanding to remove all green colour and expose clean resin/copper before recoating. The gentleman who I spoke to does not now recall having said this.

I'm not sure if drying the hull out makes any difference; my boat was out from August 2001 until June 2002, in S France, so was pretty well dried out. The Coppercoat was sanded and second coat applied about a week before launching.

I even thought that perhaps the long period out of the water caused the old coating to deteriorate, rather than being beneficial.

Does anyone else have relevant experience with Copperbot/Coppercoat/Coppershield or similar?

 

[mormargh]

I'm using Coppercoat from Aquarius. Admittedly this is the second attempt since the 'professionals' who applied it first time only put two-thirds of the amount needed on! This season was the first for the new coating and it has worked well even though I am told it has been a bad year generally around the UK for fouling. Not sure whether Graffozz has just topped up an area which won't work. If you redo any bits, you have to treat as if applying from new (i.e. numerous coats). Also, the first year is allegedly the worst until the copper really gets going. General consensus if the hull is allowed to dry out ashore for any length of time is to abrade with Scotchbrite before relaunching.

 

[KevB]

I don't think you can add more coppercoat to what's already there. When applying it from scratch you need to do it in one session as each coat needs to be tacky to bond to the previous coat.

Maybe this is the problem - the original is still there but the reapplied coat is lifting from the original?

I think you are supposed to lightly sand it every season so expose new copper.

 

[Honey]

Re: Microspec

Microspec, You sound as if you have some experiance this new wonder product -Pure Seal. Can you tell us more about it please?

 

[richardf]

Hi KevB

No, the original 2 coats <u>plus</u> the recoat are blistering or lifting right down to the Gelshield (still good), which was applied before the original coating in 1994.

This seems to suggest that the new coat affected the old coat in some way, but 90% of the coating is still as hard as ever.

 

[gianenrico]

The answer was meant for Grafozz.
I would expect that a total or partial reapplication would require:
Drying the boat (1 to 3 months on the hard),
After the drying period, sanding with fine mesh orbital sander,
Then application of (how many layers?) of Coppercoat,
Waiting before launch.
I used the AMC product.
In your case I think that after a deep sanding (not necessarily or possible going back to original gel coat) almost any hard matrix antifoul should go; not sure how self polishing ones will behave.
Cheers

 

[catmandoo]

I too had coppercoat and after 2 years it did not really work . AMC told me that to make it work I had to haul out yearly and scrub the hull with a pot scrubber to remove the oxidised surface . This was not much use . I also got small blisters in the coating which when burst leaked water although the gel coat underneath was OK .

I then gave up and this year and sanded it with 80 grit to apply a coating of a local Italian brand Brignola Sargasso 94 which seems to be quite good.

 

[richardf]

Hi Catmando

Hauling and scrubbing the bottom every year completely defeats the point of a copper coating. AMC's main selling point is/was that Coppercoat avoids the cost of annual hauling out and new antifouling.

Mine did allow slime and some very light growth to build up when the boat was not used much, but, to be fair this was quite easily removed with the boat in the water. I hauled out after 4 years to check everything before a longish trip, and a quick pressure clean removed everything - there were no barnacles or other hard growth.

My blisters also leak water if burst - this looks like osmosis in the epoxy layer, but this did not happen until some time after I applied new Coppercoat on the old.

Despite my pointing out that the blisters are not in the gelcoat, the owner of the yard declared that the hull has osmosis, and the gelcoat should be stripped, reinforcing my belief that osmosis is the best thing that ever happened to create work for the marine pleasure industry.

I once saw a large new boat with osmosis in the filler used to fair the hull to the keel and skeg joints. One of the experts wanted to have the gelcoat removed, until he was told the boat was steel.

I understand that osmosis blisters in gelcoats are due to water reacting with unreacted components of the polymer, because of poor mixing before use. My coatings were all mixed very vigorously and thoroughly with a mechanical stirrer, and in any case no blisters appeared for at least 8 years. The blisters are under the original layer, not under the second coat. Under the blisters is sound International Gelshield (an epoxy anti-osmosis coating) , now 13 years old.

This seems to say something about the reliability of different products.

Did you mention your blisters to anyone at AMC? If so, when? I was told, on April 24 this year that they had never come across the problem before.

Is there anyone else out there happy/unhappy with copper coating products?

 

[Sans Bateau]

We applied Coppercoat 2 years ago. On the Sat we applied two coats of ME100 (unbranded solvent free epoxy). On the Sunday we applied 4 coats of Coppercoat.

Prior to the ME100 the hull had been grit blasted to remove all the old antifoul. I went over the gel coat with wet/dry then a rag soaked in white spirit prior to application of the ME100.

I would not expect any problems with the coating security, however this year slime build up has been heavy, plus some weed growth along the water line and where the light penetrates near the bow. This though was evident on a lot of boats in the marina this year. What we have not had though is any hard growth, barnacles etc.

I expect to lift and pressure wash each season, or dry out on a grid. However whilst others are applying MORE antifoul, I'll be sailing!

I did speak to someone from Coppercoat at SIBS, he suggested that better performance can be achieved using a course Scotch Brite type product rather than wet/dry when reactivating the copper.

 

[richardf]

While searching for more information on copper coatings, I came across the following

The 1980s saw the development of Copperbot, which consists of metallic copper particles suspended in an epoxy resin. To apply, the suspension is simply brushed, rolled or sprayed onto a thoroughly cleaned hull. After drying, the top surface was abraded to reveal metallic copper at the surface, thus providing the desired fouling resistance. <u>The epoxy resin initially used was water-soluble and was subject to osmosis</u>, a condition in which water penetrates the coating and enters the surface layers of the fiberglass hull causing degradation of the hull structure.

A reformulated and renamed product called Coppercoat, in which the epoxy resin was waterproof, was introduced in 1991. An alternative product known as the Copperbot2000 system uses the original water-miscible epoxy resin over an initial coating of a nonpermeable resin, thus preventing osmosis. VC 17M, a suspension of copper powder in a Teflon film was subsequently developed for DIY use using a roller or spray.

Copperguard 80 was introduced in 1995. It also contains copper particles in an epoxy resin; a related product called Copperguard 90 contains particles of a copper-nickel alloy.

(The underlining is mine)

I bought Coppercoat for my second coating from AMC, after dicussion with them, under the impression that the formulation was the same, as stated on their website:

First marketed under the brand name Copperbot by C-Defence International Ltd, this revolutionary coating has been soley manufactured and distributed by Aquarius Marine Coatings Ltd since January 1998, under the name CopperCoat.

Their website is www.coppercoat.com/index.htm

It's beginning to seem like someone didn't tell me something, and my problem might be due to overcoating a water soluble base with an impermeable one.

Now we have Copperbot, Coppercoat, Copperguard and VC17M, plus I have also come across Copperboat and even Copperpoxy (the one which really blisters?)

The whole article on copper coatings is HERE

<span style="color:red"> I just noticed the above says AMC's product reformulation was in 1991. I bought my first batch in 1994, in Mallorca, and it was most definitely water based. Now I'm wondering
(a) Is the information in the above article incorrect?
or
(b) Was the person who sold me the product getting rid of some old stock? (he had the same surname as the present person running ANC) </span>

 

[catmandoo]

I was not aware of the new claims regarding water solubility but 2 years ago when I repaired some areas which had stripped off I noticed that the paint was very soluble in water in fact I was advised to keep it away from rain until dry . When one or 2 rain drops got past the temporary protective awning running down the hull the effect on the coppercoat was obvious as an offwhite vertical white stripe .


I did mention the blisters to AMC and they advised it was the result of poor application in the first place which I cannot believe as all the supplier's instructions were followed rigourously on the original application and as I used and mixed small quantities each time for each repair .

In my case the Gelgoat underneath was hard and unblemished . Some of the blisters were about the size of my hand .

Interestingly though most blistered occured on the inside face of one of my catamaran's hulls and near the bow blisters were the size of pin heads

 

[catmandoo]

On mine in Sardinia after lying in the marina for the month of August the hull looked like a hedgehog , all over .

So It does not work even ignoring the blistering problem . I have photographs to prove it .

 

[richardf]

[ QUOTE ]
I did mention the blisters to AMC and they advised it was the result of poor application in the first place

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a typical AMC response.

 

[Sans Bateau]

[ QUOTE ]
When one or 2 rain drops got past the temporary protective awning running down the hull the effect on the coppercoat was obvious as an offwhite vertical white stripe

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, I noticed this too! The intructions do, I am sure, state that until the application is cured it must be kept dry. (Coppercoat)

 

[richardf]

Update after 3 years.
My boat is permanently in the French canal system since last summer. No more fouling, so I just left the Copperbot/Coppercoat as it was.
It continues to flake off. Who knows, it may eventually all fall off and I'll save the cost of having it blasted off!