MapisM
Well-Known Member
I found some previous posts on coppercoat and the likes, but couldn't find anyhing specific to wooden hulls.
Tx in advance for any experienced views.
Tx in advance for any experienced views.
Copper antifoul on wooden hulls
- Thread starter MapisM
- Start date
Porthandbuoy
Well-Known Member
Not a good idea for a conventionally maintained / restored wooden yacht.
All the copper antifouling products rely on copper powder mixed with epoxy. The problem here is with the epoxy. Unless the boat has been completely built or restored such that the seams are fully epoxy filled, and the entire hull saturated with the stuff, water WILL get behind the antifouling epoxy and will NOT get back out. Rot will set in very quickly and your yacht will die an ugly death, albeit free of weed an barnacles.
All the copper antifouling products rely on copper powder mixed with epoxy. The problem here is with the epoxy. Unless the boat has been completely built or restored such that the seams are fully epoxy filled, and the entire hull saturated with the stuff, water WILL get behind the antifouling epoxy and will NOT get back out. Rot will set in very quickly and your yacht will die an ugly death, albeit free of weed an barnacles.
burgundyben
Well-Known Member
Ah...but...one forum member has been putting fine copper powder in his conventional antifoul with reasonable results, search for posts by'tcm'
tcm
...
hi bb.
I replied on the other forum where this post also made, harump.
I replied on the other forum where this post also made, harump.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
You can get anitfoul paint with copper in it. Epoxy coppercoat is a no no though.
tcm
...
yep tho the antifoul with copper in is not as effective at detering barnacles
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Apologies...
...for double posting.
I know it's sort of unpolite - and never did that before - but for this subject I was really in doubt about where to ask.
Re.mixing copper powder with normal antifoul, I guess you can't get anywhere near the duration of epoxy-based systems. Am I right?
The duration was my main reason for considering it, btw.
...for double posting.
I know it's sort of unpolite - and never did that before - but for this subject I was really in doubt about where to ask.
Re.mixing copper powder with normal antifoul, I guess you can't get anywhere near the duration of epoxy-based systems. Am I right?
The duration was my main reason for considering it, btw.
tcm
...
Re: Apologies...
not a matter of manners - just that the thred is diluted with some answers in two different places. No mattr ...
It is v tempting to try a long-duration solution for hull covering - do it once and hurrah that's that.
Howevr, i don't thik it is realy feasible. The fact is that whatever application is used under waterline, it gets an immediate beating from the strops at relaunch, which often forces rubbed holes in paint for example. And because of the supports ashore, the hull covring (paint whatever) can't be too "technical" either - by this i mean that the small cuprous mosaic idea was always doomed to lifting from around the areas previously under the supports.
So either the material has to be so good that relaunch doesn't affect it, such as say a stainless steel or very rare CuN hull....OR the process should be kept cheap and done more frequently.
There is a *possible* optionfor small sailing boats which have a hull speed always lower that say 8knots, and that is a copper "foil". You get copper foil reels and have a self-adhesive backing aplied, and apply this from stern to stem in managaeable pieces a couple of feet long and 5-6 inches wide. 100thou thick it will last atleast ten years. This hull treatment when applied to a planing hull will fail - the edges lift as i found out- but hydrodynamic forces are much lower in displacement sailing boat, the flow generaly laminar. Google for "foil specialists" northern england somewhere.
The option i have finally used is the copper powder mixed with Trilux, and this gives at least a couple of seasons protection against very bad antifouling, after which it s time to lift anyway to check sterngear etc.
not a matter of manners - just that the thred is diluted with some answers in two different places. No mattr ...
It is v tempting to try a long-duration solution for hull covering - do it once and hurrah that's that.
Howevr, i don't thik it is realy feasible. The fact is that whatever application is used under waterline, it gets an immediate beating from the strops at relaunch, which often forces rubbed holes in paint for example. And because of the supports ashore, the hull covring (paint whatever) can't be too "technical" either - by this i mean that the small cuprous mosaic idea was always doomed to lifting from around the areas previously under the supports.
So either the material has to be so good that relaunch doesn't affect it, such as say a stainless steel or very rare CuN hull....OR the process should be kept cheap and done more frequently.
There is a *possible* optionfor small sailing boats which have a hull speed always lower that say 8knots, and that is a copper "foil". You get copper foil reels and have a self-adhesive backing aplied, and apply this from stern to stem in managaeable pieces a couple of feet long and 5-6 inches wide. 100thou thick it will last atleast ten years. This hull treatment when applied to a planing hull will fail - the edges lift as i found out- but hydrodynamic forces are much lower in displacement sailing boat, the flow generaly laminar. Google for "foil specialists" northern england somewhere.
The option i have finally used is the copper powder mixed with Trilux, and this gives at least a couple of seasons protection against very bad antifouling, after which it s time to lift anyway to check sterngear etc.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Re: Apologies...
[ QUOTE ]
There is a *possible* optionfor small sailing boats which have a hull speed always lower that say 8knots, and that is a copper "foil".
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting point. But why just "small" boats? Bigger ones aren't necessarily much faster.
Anyway, yes, I remember some posts about your tests - must say I always thought it couldn't work on planing hulls...
But then again, my boat - albeit motor - has a displacement hull, normally cruising at 9 kts or so.
Occasionally, I push it to 11 kts, but just for 10', to wake up the engines a little bit.
Do you think copper foils could be a sensible option?
Mind, it's still a wooden hull - probably the problems already highlited for epoxy would apply also to copper foils...?
Btw, the boat is in the med (Sardinia at the moment), therefore Northern England specialists couldn't help.
[ QUOTE ]
There is a *possible* optionfor small sailing boats which have a hull speed always lower that say 8knots, and that is a copper "foil".
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting point. But why just "small" boats? Bigger ones aren't necessarily much faster.
Anyway, yes, I remember some posts about your tests - must say I always thought it couldn't work on planing hulls...
But then again, my boat - albeit motor - has a displacement hull, normally cruising at 9 kts or so.
Occasionally, I push it to 11 kts, but just for 10', to wake up the engines a little bit.
Do you think copper foils could be a sensible option?
Mind, it's still a wooden hull - probably the problems already highlited for epoxy would apply also to copper foils...?
Btw, the boat is in the med (Sardinia at the moment), therefore Northern England specialists couldn't help.
tcm
...
Re: Apologies...
The only reason i say smaller ones is that I have only known of it being tried on a smaller hull, that of the boat belonging to a certain "willi" chapwho dreamed up the idea. I don't know if tried on larger it it might well work. It was tried on a planing hull before mine, 28 footer and apparently ok.
our boat was in med as well. We took the foil down in the car, along with an office guillotine to chop up the copper into manageable strips, so you would only need the material.
The only reason i say smaller ones is that I have only known of it being tried on a smaller hull, that of the boat belonging to a certain "willi" chapwho dreamed up the idea. I don't know if tried on larger it it might well work. It was tried on a planing hull before mine, 28 footer and apparently ok.
our boat was in med as well. We took the foil down in the car, along with an office guillotine to chop up the copper into manageable strips, so you would only need the material.
tcm
...
Re: Apologies...
The only reason i say smaller ones is that I have only known of it being tried on a smaller hull, that of the boat belonging to a certain "willi" chapwho dreamed up the idea. I don't know if tried on larger and as you say it might well work. It was also tried on a planing hull before mine, 28 footer and apparently ok. One way or anothr tho i imagine the dynamic forces under bigger boats must be larger than those nder smaller ones.
our boat was in med as well. We took the foil down in the car, along with an office guillotine to chop up the copper into manageable strips, so you would only need the material.
The copper foil is available to special order from keith thompson via http://www.foil-specialists.com/
The self adhesive should be fine if the current surface covering is also fine. Some drone on about epoxy tis and that but we experimentaly stuck a bit of self-adhesive copper to a piece of plywood and then tried (and failed) to rip it off or blast it off with jetwash.
The only reason i say smaller ones is that I have only known of it being tried on a smaller hull, that of the boat belonging to a certain "willi" chapwho dreamed up the idea. I don't know if tried on larger and as you say it might well work. It was also tried on a planing hull before mine, 28 footer and apparently ok. One way or anothr tho i imagine the dynamic forces under bigger boats must be larger than those nder smaller ones.
our boat was in med as well. We took the foil down in the car, along with an office guillotine to chop up the copper into manageable strips, so you would only need the material.
The copper foil is available to special order from keith thompson via http://www.foil-specialists.com/
The self adhesive should be fine if the current surface covering is also fine. Some drone on about epoxy tis and that but we experimentaly stuck a bit of self-adhesive copper to a piece of plywood and then tried (and failed) to rip it off or blast it off with jetwash.
skipperscouse
Well-Known Member
if there is too much copper ie copper sheathing, it can react with the fastenings on an iron fastened hull. beware.
it's ok for copper fastenings though.
it's ok for copper fastenings though.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Good point. It's iron fastened, I'm afraid. But what does "react" exactly mean?
...'course I wouldn't fancy a long lasting antifoul, if the hull planks are going to fall apart shortly!
...'course I wouldn't fancy a long lasting antifoul, if the hull planks are going to fall apart shortly!
trouville
N/A
It means your planks fall off are you sure your iron fastend?
I wanted to ask why this foil has only been found in northern UK? Jerryat gave me a link up there as well.
Surly this super sticky roll of copper can be found in Italy (i wont say France but in Italy anything can be found)??
I wanted to ask why this foil has only been found in northern UK? Jerryat gave me a link up there as well.
Surly this super sticky roll of copper can be found in Italy (i wont say France but in Italy anything can be found)??
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Re: Apologies...
[ QUOTE ]
Some drone on about epoxy tis and that but we experimentaly stuck a bit of self-adhesive copper to a piece of plywood and then tried (and failed) to rip it off or blast it off with jetwash.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, my main concern is not this one, but rather - as Mariposa said for epoxy:
[ QUOTE ]
Unless the boat has been completely built or restored such that the seams are fully epoxy filled, and the entire hull saturated with the stuff, water WILL get behind the antifouling epoxy and will NOT get back out. Rot will set in very quickly and your yacht will die an ugly death
[/ QUOTE ]
For what I learnt during the years on wooden boats, and considering also that my boat has the traditional seams, this is a risk I'm not willing to take.
And I guess this risk would still be there with foils, or am I missing something?
[ QUOTE ]
Some drone on about epoxy tis and that but we experimentaly stuck a bit of self-adhesive copper to a piece of plywood and then tried (and failed) to rip it off or blast it off with jetwash.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, my main concern is not this one, but rather - as Mariposa said for epoxy:
[ QUOTE ]
Unless the boat has been completely built or restored such that the seams are fully epoxy filled, and the entire hull saturated with the stuff, water WILL get behind the antifouling epoxy and will NOT get back out. Rot will set in very quickly and your yacht will die an ugly death
[/ QUOTE ]
For what I learnt during the years on wooden boats, and considering also that my boat has the traditional seams, this is a risk I'm not willing to take.
And I guess this risk would still be there with foils, or am I missing something?
trouville
N/A
Re: Apologies...
Thats a good question.One i was asking myself.And the reason i havent tried to find the foil.
Im thinking of coppering my bottem (or lead havent decided yet) But when/if i do that i will tar the bottem to fully protect the wood.Once tared you can never again paint!
Ive seen boats being copper bottemed and they have used tar paper.When i got some rot from a bronze fitting i removed it put tar paper over the area and nailed copper sheet over that lasted with no further rot for two years and when i removed it to repair there was no worsening at all
Thats a good question.One i was asking myself.And the reason i havent tried to find the foil.
Im thinking of coppering my bottem (or lead havent decided yet) But when/if i do that i will tar the bottem to fully protect the wood.Once tared you can never again paint!
Ive seen boats being copper bottemed and they have used tar paper.When i got some rot from a bronze fitting i removed it put tar paper over the area and nailed copper sheet over that lasted with no further rot for two years and when i removed it to repair there was no worsening at all
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Tar paper?
Never heard about such treatment before!
To me, it sounds like a remedy for old/rotten wood planks.
Does it make sense when the wood is still in good conditions?
Anyway, could you expand a bit on its pros and cons?
Thanks in advance.
Never heard about such treatment before!
To me, it sounds like a remedy for old/rotten wood planks.
Does it make sense when the wood is still in good conditions?
Anyway, could you expand a bit on its pros and cons?
Thanks in advance.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Good point. It's iron fastened, I'm afraid. But what does "react" exactly mean?
...'course I wouldn't fancy a long lasting antifoul, if the hull planks are going to fall apart shortly!
[/ QUOTE ]
It means the iron will react with the copper, the copper will win and your iron fastenings will be on the rust fast track.
Good point. It's iron fastened, I'm afraid. But what does "react" exactly mean?
...'course I wouldn't fancy a long lasting antifoul, if the hull planks are going to fall apart shortly!
[/ QUOTE ]
It means the iron will react with the copper, the copper will win and your iron fastenings will be on the rust fast track.
trouville
N/A
The tar "paper" keeps the copper off the wood. You heat the tar and it sticks keeping the wood in good order.
There was a lond artical about "copper botteming your boat" in PBO in the late 80s when "Iskar"??I think or something like that went to south America she was a very old gaff rigged boat. Ive got more details when i get to them and my books in the new year!Then you can look up the old PBO artical in their archives,i imagine?
Copperings quite easy!! I was supprised and it dose keep the worm away!If your worried about your iron nails then you could use lead sheet.Im thinking about lead as thats nutral and not even the keel and keel bolts will be upset by lead!I want to do it against worm!
A very bad place for worm is the bay by porto Azzuro.The hospital seems to dump its waist and there are still sewer pipes leading into the harbour!!!At the end of the bay in 2 meters the water gets very walm in summer and so the worm seems to love it there,They will eat any wooden boat they can even mine!!!!When they find a scratch and bare wood!!!!
There was a lond artical about "copper botteming your boat" in PBO in the late 80s when "Iskar"??I think or something like that went to south America she was a very old gaff rigged boat. Ive got more details when i get to them and my books in the new year!Then you can look up the old PBO artical in their archives,i imagine?
Copperings quite easy!! I was supprised and it dose keep the worm away!If your worried about your iron nails then you could use lead sheet.Im thinking about lead as thats nutral and not even the keel and keel bolts will be upset by lead!I want to do it against worm!
A very bad place for worm is the bay by porto Azzuro.The hospital seems to dump its waist and there are still sewer pipes leading into the harbour!!!At the end of the bay in 2 meters the water gets very walm in summer and so the worm seems to love it there,They will eat any wooden boat they can even mine!!!!When they find a scratch and bare wood!!!!
reiner
New Member
Re: Apologies...
Interesting to find somebody to have experience with copper foil as antifouling. I was wondering if I should use it on my hard chine fiberglass boat. So I wrote to Keith Thompson for to find out more. Unfortuateley he couldnt answer all my questions. My main concern was, does it realy last for 10 to 15 years, as quoted ? I mean, is it on the market that long, or is it an estimate ? Hiscock used to describe in Voyaging Under Sail, how even thick copperplate, in warm waters, wears thin in only 10 month, at least near the waterline.
What if this foil wears thin? You would be left with the adhesive. How do you remove it ? Nasty job I suppose.
Also, of course the job of prepairing for the foil in the first case. All your old paint has got to be removed.
On the other hand, its very tempting to save painting and hauling out every year. Probably an occasional scrub at low
tide might do. The foil also prevents from osmosis, Keith says. Anybody with more experience on the subject ?
Interesting to find somebody to have experience with copper foil as antifouling. I was wondering if I should use it on my hard chine fiberglass boat. So I wrote to Keith Thompson for to find out more. Unfortuateley he couldnt answer all my questions. My main concern was, does it realy last for 10 to 15 years, as quoted ? I mean, is it on the market that long, or is it an estimate ? Hiscock used to describe in Voyaging Under Sail, how even thick copperplate, in warm waters, wears thin in only 10 month, at least near the waterline.
What if this foil wears thin? You would be left with the adhesive. How do you remove it ? Nasty job I suppose.
Also, of course the job of prepairing for the foil in the first case. All your old paint has got to be removed.
On the other hand, its very tempting to save painting and hauling out every year. Probably an occasional scrub at low
tide might do. The foil also prevents from osmosis, Keith says. Anybody with more experience on the subject ?
