copies of anchors

[chal]

saving money on an anchor looks questionable.

Good, reliable anchors are good, reliable insurance.

Jonathan

I'm sure you are right, and I am not personally aiming to skimp just for the sake of it. However, I am sailing as I restore a 1930s built gaffer on a pretty limited budget so some economising has to take place, or I'd never get to sail at all. When I acquired the boat it came with a massive and heavy fisherman (probably original equipment) so anything is likely to be an improvement! I'll keep pondering.

In the meantime

...Having used a genuine CQR for about 1000 successful anchorings...

Charles, do you mind me asking how heavy your boat is? I ask because I note that on another thread you say you have "just ditched 15m of chain and 40m of 25mm octoplait for 50m of 14mm octoplait". I've got about 30m of 10mm chain that's of decent quality and about as much again that's more dubious. I've pretty much decided to get rid of the old stuff and lengthen the chain with octoplait. Looking at breaking load figures given by manufacturers, it seems to me that the almost 4 tons breaking load figure for Liros 14mm should be plenty, as the anchor is likely to drag well before that figure is even distantly approached. Going to 16mm octoplait would add an extra ton but at extra cost - money that might be better spent on the anchor. My boat weighs about 8 tons afaik.

Thanks!

 

[J Neeves]

As far as i know Simpson Lawrence was always part of some other whole, Scottish Shipbuilding Industries or something like, and when the company was reorganised the SL name was dropped (along with all the other well known names), and the whole became Lewmar. SL held the license to CQR and Delta (which was developed in house, over 6 years, by SL in the 80s) and these designs were simply and seamlessly transferred to Lewmar.

Gordon Lyall who is one of the names on the Delta patent and was TD of SL in the 80's gave me all the detail (which I do not recall in full) about 6 years ago, when he still sailed, and lives on the SW coast of Scotland. It was he and his team who developed the self righting shank, much 'copied' ever since.

Gordon never mentioned Sowester but he might have given me the more glamorous version of the story.

The cost of a CQR is now astronomical and as far as I can make out, still made in Scotland - but I'm not sure of this latter.

Jonathan

 

[chal]

An additional extra question for Charles if you happen to see this: it seems to me that to someone looking for a good anchor on a budget a Bügel copy must at least be of interest - it gets you into the NGA zone at significantly lower cost. One of the comments I've seen quite a lot when trawling through anchor threads is "good Bügel copies can be very good, poor ones terrible" and buyers are advised to check how accurate the copy is. That's probably good advice, but only if you have the opportunity to accurately measure the anchor before you buy it, which often won't be the case. A couple of people on this forum have specifically recommended the Bügel copy from SVB. Since I'd be buying it mail order, it would clearly have to be sight unseen. I've been doing a bit of a search trying to find who in particular recommended the SVB and the only one I could find was you. Do you actually have personal experience of it? Any comments you have would be much appreciated.

 

[J Neeves]

Chai,

What size, weight, of Bugel are you intending to buy?

I'm also interested in how or why you classify it as an NGA?

Jonathan

 

[chal]

Hi Jonathan

The SVB page for Bügels (http://www.svb24.com/?t=product&id=28) interestingly relates size to boat weight. They reckon 20kg for a boat from 6-10 tonnes; afaik mine's about 8 so that seems the size to go for. Most manufacturers seem to relate anchor weight to boat length but that probably doesn't work for me. Kobra eg show 12kg as generous but I suspect I'd really need something heavier than that. Maybe I'm wrong.

As for the NGA remark, I'm not the only one to think that: I suppose it comes down to the broad shape of the anchor. I am absolutely not an anchor expert - as I'm sure you can tell - but leaving out spade types, a lot of NGAs look quite a bit like a Bügel. Okay, I know the latter has a flat blade etc, but if you took a Rocna, a Mantus, an Manson and a Knox and compared them with, say, a CQR, a Delta and a Bügel, not many people would hesitate for long about deciding which one the NGAs appeared to be descended from.

Paul

 

[vyv_cox]

I always think of the Bugel as a sort of half-way stage in the development of the NG anchors. Technically speaking there is no such thing as a 'Bugel copy' as the design is in the public domain and anybody can make one from the plans. However, as with everything, some make them less well than others. Although they do better than traditional types in anchor tests they do not fare so well as the true NG anchors, as it can be seen that their surface area is rather low for their weight by comparison.

When I was looking to change to one around 8 years ago they were little cheaper than a Rocna, which was what I bought. Things have changed now, no doubt, but there is a far greater choice of good NG anchors today, some at more economic prices.

 

[J Neeves]

Paul,

We do not see Bugels in Oz, they never caught on here, I have never used one - but they are very popular in the eastern Med but not in the western Med. The original was released in the late 70's, I think, and to suggest they are 'N' GA looked to be stretching the appellation a bit too much. When all is said and done - its a Danforth, welded up with a roll bar. Bluewater who sell the Spade also have Bugels on their shelves but the latter are not very popular - which might be worth pondering. Bugels do have fair reviews but anchors have moved forward in 35 years and the newer anchors do appear to be consistently better but maybe consistently more expensive. Much depends on how, when and where you are to anchor but if you were to use your ground tackle in fair weather and foul and frequently you will never regret buying one of the best, even if you can least afford it.

Jonathan

 

[chal]

When I was looking to change to one around 8 years ago they were little cheaper than a Rocna, which was what I bought. Things have changed now, no doubt, but there is a far greater choice of good NG anchors today, some at more economic prices.

The price of the Bügel copy is really a lot less than the others. On a quick look around, these are the best prices I can find (anchor weights based on manufacturer recommendation):
- Rocna 15kg £303 (most places about £350)
- Manson Supreme 16kg £300 (more widely available than the Rocna)
- Manson Boss 16kg £293 (no roll bar but I presume still a NGA)
- Mantus 20kg £345
- Bügel £140

That's less than half the price of the nearest competitor. The Mantus is only apparently available from one place in Netherlands and the postage is a lot so that pushes the price up, otherwise it would be the cheapest after the Bügel; it would also be cheaper if buying a 15kg model. I don't know if the Mantus needs to be heavier to achieve the same hold as the others or whether their figures are simply more conservative. I have a bit of a bad back problem so weight reduction is attractive.

 

[30boat]

When I made my Bugel I used 20mm steel plate which made it weigh about 25kgs and it's a very efficient anchor.I now keep it as my spare because my Rocna is lighter.

 

[J Neeves]

An anchor does not need a roll bar to work well - as illustrated by a Spade or Fortress. Maybe extend your horizons a bit. Where does the Kobra fit into your price spreadsheet?

Jonathan

 

[chal]

Jonathan

Thanks for your comments, advice much appreciated. I'm sure you are right: if cost was no object, I'd buy the best I could afford (though not sure what that would be ). Sadly I really do have to take cost into account - I know we all know boats are expensive, but an old one seems to soak money up like blotting paper soaks up water, but faster.

I used to boat around Moreton Bay and that was dead easy - most of the time, in decent weather at least (which was more predictable than in SW England) it would probably have been ok to chuck a brick tied to a bit of string over the side, and it would have done. Never anchored overnight mind you, but have left a boat for a couple of hours walking on the islands with a small grapnel holding it. Then again, there used to be a replica of Endeavour in Sydney Harbour, don't know if it's still there but I imagine you might have seen it, and the mind boggles when you look around at what they achieved with not much safety equipment.

I'd like to be ready to get going once Spring arrives here properly, but still have a few weeks, so maybe will ponder a bit longer. Out of interest, given my reply to Vyv, with prices of what's going, what would you buy? As I said, boat is heavy, and a 5 metre tidal range is common where I'll be anchoring so I want something that resets itself well *when* the boat turns!

Cheers

Paul

 

[chal]

Where does the Kobra fit into your price spreadsheet?
Jonathan

Similar to the Bügel copy - actually, cheaper for a lighter one. Plastimo reckon 12kg plenty for my boat, though that is based on length rather than weight, and doesn't seem a lot compared to most other recommendations. I could get one of those cheaper than any of the others. As far as I am concerned, the lighter the better as I find dealing with the weight quite a problem at times. Then again, I could get a Delta copy from a reputable chandler for even less. Sigh!

 

[charles_reed]

I wonder how the Sowester CQR copies fitted as standard by Sadler, Westerly and others in the 80s rate compared to genuine CQR?

Very badly - I speak from bitter experience. Extraordinarily, Sowester were main distributors for the CQR.
When the shank finally shattered in Majorca it came as a blessed relief, especially when the local chandler wanted to get rid of a genuine CQR.

I fear that the myths about the unreliability of the CQR have probably grown up based upon the So'wester "copy".

 

[charles_reed]

<<Charles, do you mind me asking how heavy your boat is? I ask because I note that on another thread you say you have "just ditched 15m of chain and 40m of 25mm octoplait for 50m of 14mm octoplait". I've got about 30m of 10mm chain that's of decent quality and about as much again that's more dubious. I've pretty much decided to get rid of the old stuff and lengthen the chain with octoplait. Looking at breaking load figures given by manufacturers, it seems to me that the almost 4 tons breaking load figure for Liros 14mm should be plenty, as the anchor is likely to drag well before that figure is even distantly approached. Going to 16mm octoplait would add an extra ton but at extra cost - money that might be better spent on the anchor. My boat weighs about 8 tons afaik.>>

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?411463-copies-of-anchors/page7#ZTiE19VCScLHXjj9.99

My boat had a design weight of 3000kg. Being the pre-production prototype she floated well above her design marks. When I first lifted her in @ Aberdyfi the crane read 7204lbs.
Since then she's travelled the scenic route from the Irish Sea to the E Med and probably weighs about 10,000lbs. Though I've thrown away the 15m of 8mm chain, replacing it with 50m 14mm octoplait allows easy splicing to the chain (larger diameter means a botch) and it works easily in the SL Anchorman gypsy.
I'd agree that the extra weight would be better concentrated in the anchor - I've got a 25lb Mantus, bought direct from Texas as the European distributor had no stock and no intention of getting any - the US$350 delivered price was slightly spoilt by the EC €84 tax and customs duty.
Mantus, CQR and Delta all recommend the same weight anchor for my boat - Rocna, Spade and Manson considerably heavier ones. Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that the last 3 are self-confessedly inferior to the first three, it had more to do with the gradations in weight ranges afaik.
Vyv very kindly warned me about certain disadvantages of the aluminium Spade, which was a pity because I had a couple of years of interesting e-mail argument with Alain Poireaud.
Alain Fraysse's work on sailboat windage is an early study which is still valid.
I have never heard of anyone who has had previously sound anchor chain break, or of adequately sized octoplait breaking though chafe is a problem with all textile rodes. I've sat out 3 days of meltemi (<40 knots) on a 6.5kg Danforth, 25m 7mm chain and 35m of 10mm octoplait in good sand.
I would point out that nylon 8-plait appears to have a higher breaking load, but more hysterisis than polyester and there is published evidence that the load degrades due to core heating due to this hysterisis. I always have used nylon.
Greg Kutsen of Mantus is actually a specialist medic and was extremely forthcoming in giving me some of their test results - the 25lb anchor in a medium sand bottom is clustered about 8kN before breakout starts and about 150% of that in a good mud bottom. In fact you appear to get similar results from a carefully laid CQR, according to the Massachusett tests.
I have been influenced by no-elex's "Photographs of Anchors Setting" despite Jonathan's warnings, mainly because the photos are self-evident.
I'm afraid I am of the conclusion that the anchorer is more important than the anchor - though the new-age anchors all seem to dig in faster and with less travel than any of the established anchors (CQR, Delta, Bruce, Brittany) there is little difference in the ultimate holding power in their preferred substrate

 

[J Neeves]

Chal,

We sail a 38' Lightwave, weighs about 7t in cruising mode. Our preferred and annual cruising ground is down to the west coast of Tasmania and we try to spend a couple of weeks in Port Davey. We sail as a couple. We make shorter trips through the rest of the year and in fact are off to Port Stephens and Broughton Island tomorrow.

We carry an Anchor Right Excel, in both steel and alloy, a Spade and a Fortress (FX 23). The steel Excel and Spade are both 15kgs. We have a main rode, 8mm x 50m on the windlass and a second rode 30m of 8mm and 40' of 3 strand. We have a bridle snubber, 12m long each side made from recycled lead climbing rope. We have 100m of line we use as a shore line (tress make very reliable anchors) and could cobble together a third rode from mooring lines etc. We have spare short lengths of chain to use round rocks (in the absence of trees) - reduces chafe. The Fortress is the only anchor that is reliable in mud but obviously also works in most sand bottoms and like the alloy Excel can be deployed safely by dinghy. The alloy Spade, Excel and Fortress are all demountable - though we carry the Fortress assembled.

We also have an alloy Spade, which we might carry instead of the steel version, and we cannot tell the difference between the alloy Excel and steel Excel and alloy Spade and Steel Spade.

You can only buy an Excel with considerable difficulty in Europe, as Charles found when he imported his Mantus (though if you were coming back to Oz the alloy version can fit into your luggage allowance). I'm documented as suggesting (Sailing Today March 2015) that my best buys in the UK are Spade + Fortress + Kobra - all of the size to fit your yacht - so you can use any alone as a main anchor but should you lose one, you have a spare. I'm not in favour of one monster anchor for the once in a cruise storm and prefer to deploy 2 anchors (as forecasts are relatively reliable). Monster anchors would be difficult to retrieve by hand. We have now met 2 yachts that did not carry a spare full sized anchor and have lost it - we have leant one of our spares each time for the night. We have also seen yachts trying in vain to anchor in mud, west end Macquarrie Harbour - but have been unable to help as we only carry one Fortress.

I do not think that, blindfold, anyone can tell the difference in sand between the newer anchors, Spade, Rocna, Supreme, Mantus, Kobra, Excel, Fortress. I cannot comment on Bugel, Vulcan, Boss as i have never tried them but I have tried all of the others from our cat. They all set very quickly, if not suddenly. But they all have a weakness - which their purveyors are loathe to talk about. There is not one perfect anchor. You might want to have a quick glance at the Fortress website and view their recent Chesapeake mud tests - its quite an eye opener as to how ostensibly similar anchors perform so differently in mud. Sadly it is American focussed and misses some of the models mentioned here.

Whatever anchor you choose - use a snubber, I'd suggest 10m of 12mm nylon.

As an aside - we are working on replacing our 50m 8mm G30 with 75m 6mm G80. I do not believe in chain weight. (So I think your 10mm chain too much for a 7t yacht - but you have it and replacing it is another expense and you would be better spending that money on an anchor).

Jonathan

 

[chal]

Many thanks for the information.

 

[Gypsy]

Paul,

We do not see Bugels in Oz, they never caught on here, I have never used one - but they are very popular in the eastern Med but not in the western Med.

As an Aussie cruiser in the Med 2002 I first saw the Bugels as we approached Turkey. That is also where we started having problems with our 'plough' style anchor not penetrating the weed. After many sunset discussions about anchoring in the area I came to the conclusion that the Bugel was rightly highly rated for penetrating the weed. I spent many hours measuring the range of Bugels available but couldn't find a way to fit one to my bowgear. Ended up putting 7kg of lead into the tip of my Plough and sharpening it - job done, the 'Ray' anchor was born.

Many of the NG anchors have come to market since that time and may well perform well in weed but I think the Bugel was quickly adopted in that area because it was significantly better than the older anchors and the Bruces for the type of bottom frequently found there.
Ray