copies of anchors

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J Neeves

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I wondered what the collective view was to copying of anchors, or copying anything come to that:

I came across this anchor:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-HEAV...AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20e558a1d5

which looks like an exact copy of a Mantus, except its welded and only comes in small sizes.

I tried to contact the international marketing guru for Mantus, but he was not interested.

So a few questions

Is it a copy, does it upset you that some small entrepreneur has his design stolen.

If you do not like the idea - what can be done about it, in this case (i'm embarrassed to say) the copy seems available in Australia and the designer is in America.

Jonathan
 
Also known as reverse engineering. Just because it is a copy makes it neither good nor bad but of course likely to contradict copy right laws etc.
This company seem to be copying anchors in stainless steel. Presumably not available in SS from the original designer maker. CCertainly not dramatically cheap.
Anyway you pay your money and take your chances. Anchor design can be tricky with slight changes of weight or angles making a big difference. good luck
olewill
 
I might have added that the designer(s) of the original Mantus have a patent application pending in America, but I do not have any detail - there is no mention of an application for other markets.

Mantus offer a stainless version.

Jonathan
 
I have had some experience with reverse engineered fittings and components in oilfield engineering. Some examples are rolling element bearings, hydraulic couplings, pump parts. They seem attractive and buyers are often tempted but it soon becomes apparent to the user that some subtleties of the original item have been missed. Hydraulic couplings in particular, where one make would not fit another, even though they were nominally identical. Rolling element bearings with lives measured in weeks instead of years. In many cases companies now will not buy anything that is not from the original manufacturer.

In the case of a more robust and simple device like an anchor it may be that it doesn't matter too much, and your Australian ones do look to be nicely made, but when it comes to cast iron copies of Bruces and splatter welded ones of Deltas one does wonder how well they might fare in bad conditions.
 
vyv_cox said:
In the case of a more robust and simple device like an anchor it may be that it doesn't matter too much, and your Australian ones do look to be nicely made, but when it comes to cast iron copies of Bruces and splatter welded ones of Deltas one does wonder how well they might fare in bad conditions.
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I suspect that a lot of the people who report bad experiences with "CQR" anchors actually had cheap copies: lighter, cast instead of forged, blunter, different aspect ratio and so on.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I suspect that a lot of the people who report bad experiences with "CQR" anchors actually had cheap copies: lighter, cast instead of forged, blunter, different aspect ratio and so on.
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Ditto the Bruce. An original Bruce is an excellent anchor. I've had mine for over25 years. Copies are rubbish, and are the reason Bruce's have a poor reputation.
 
It always surprises me when I see anchor copies for two reasons; firstly because I would not think the market would be large enough to warrant the time and investment making a copy and secondly just what type of yachtsman would take a chance and risk their boat just to save a few quid ?

In this case, as Vyv says, the anchor does look nicely made and I prefer the all in one construction as I have never liked the idea of an anchor held together by bolts - fine for lunch but would fret at night wondering if I had nipped them up.

It does appear to be a straight rip-off as they have gone to the trouble of making the long slot. As this may compromise the strength I think I would prefer the original which I presume has been comprehensively tested. Have some sympathy for Mantus as I have had several products that I designed, copied down to the tiniest detail. This was by the same UK company and I do not know how they had the nerve to talk to me at trade shows. It really pissed me off especially when customers who I knew bought the copy - grrr
 
Storyline said:
It always surprises me when I see anchor copies for two reasons; firstly because I would not think the market would be large enough to warrant the time and investment making a copy and secondly just what type of yachtsman would take a chance and risk their boat just to save a few quid ?
/QUOTE]

Possibly Practical Boat Owners.:D
Over the years, I have made several anchors. Fisherman, Danforth, and even a plough. The Fisherman type is easy to make, and in the right circumstances, is a good useful anchor. Again, the Danforth type is easy to make, and again, in the right circumstances is perfectly good.

The 140lb plough that I made was much more difficult, but the reason that I wanted it was that, on the boat that I had at the time, the main anchor was a 140lb plough, and I liked it. It was a fabricated copy of the CQR type, but had a somewhat shorter shank, which helped it to stow on the bow roller. It gave excellent service, and if I had lost it, I would have had great difficulty in replacing like for like. As it happened, the one that I made was never used. I don't consider that I was taking any unconsidered risk.

P.S. I was not making anchors commercially.
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Storyline said:
It always surprises me when I see anchor copies for two reasons; firstly because I would not think the market would be large enough to warrant the time and investment making a copy and secondly just what type of yachtsman would take a chance and risk their boat just to save a few quid ?
Click to expand...

When I lost my last anchor I replaced it with another CQR (£25 on eBay, plus delivery, plus £30 regalvanising) rather than a NG (£300?). A half-price NG copy isn't necessarily a bad deal, if it works. If.
 
The big problem with copied parts which you depend on is just what quality control was there in both the manufacturing plan and the actual final product. The Amoco Cadiz which some on here may remember was lost because of a few copied bolts. I have bought copy watches as a fashion accessory, fine they usually are cheaper than replacing the battery in a branded watch, but would I place my safety in the hands of a copier, probably not unless I was pretty desperate. Home made items for ones own use are different as long as the maker is sensible and competent.

Would I trust a counterfeit anchor in a storm, no.
 
First, the photograph of the anchor has a different shank to the genuine Mantus, length and crank are different (I have a Mantus) and Mantus have upped the specification of their shank to HT steel. My Mantus has no slot in the shank, (my be confusion here with the Manson) but there is little, if any difference in the fluke - even down to having a weighted tip.
The genuine Mantus has a sharpened chisel point which the copy appears to lack.
So I doubt, that its performance will be the same to the Mantus.

I once had a CQR copy. It was truly dreadful - hard to set, wouldn't reset and frequently dragged. Fortunately the cast shank shattered during a Mallorcan hooley and it was replaced with a genuine CQR. It was sold by Sowester Marine factors who were also the main distributors for the CQR.
The genuine CQR, though harder to set than most "new-age" anchors, is infinitely more effective, than the copy, resets well (better than a Delta I have), but needs far more pulling in to bury fully than the new-age anchors.
The Mantus replaced the CQR, which has worn out after 12 years, one resharpening and re-galvanising. I fear that the bad press the CQR has attracted is probably a combination of being a poor copy and the general anchoring incompetence of many yotties.

As to the copyright moral dimension, if you're making the copy for your own use - well and good, re-selling is thieving.
 
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I'm using a 16kg 'Delta type' anchor that I got from Gaelforce for £35. I consider it a stop-gap and hope to replace it in a year or two, probably with a Manson. However it seems pretty good, so far, and I certainly wouldn't have any worries about it structurally.
 
I had a copy plough anchor which was useless. I got rid of it and got a Manson which is excellent, as is my Fortress kedge anchor. The cqr on a 20' I had earlier was also good - anchored near Burnham when it blewup to f6 and the next day the only way I could lift it was to get the anchor chain vertical and wait for the tide to rise. I was getting worried when the stemhead was at water level then it suddenly freed.
 
A reason for starting the thread was the idea that someone has spent, hopefully, a lot of time getting the design right, getting the components made from the right sort of material and assembling is correctly, whether that be bolts or welding. The slot in the shank of the one illustrated is a bit of a red herring and probably, as its Australian, to appeal to someone who wants a SARCA (who have had a slot for 25 years.

I chose the Mantus, as I happened to have a webpage illustrating the problem. Apparently there is a 'Shovel' a copy of a Spade, lots of copy Bugels (though in steel rather than the original stainless) the SARCA gets copied a lot and obviously lots of copy Danforths, Deltas, Bruces and CQRs. Anchors are not difficult to copy, if you can cut bend and weld steel - but complexity should not make any difference to the moral question.

But it was the idea that someone had spent, invested, time and probably money to get the design right and then finds someone is 'reverse engineering' (what a lovely word for theft) your ideas - and I note that Storyline feels for the designer. May anchors are made by small companies, Sapde, Mantus, Anchor Right, Bugel (or Wasi) even Fortress and Manson are hardly large and yet they are susceptible to theft (by someone who wants to make money by copying - maybe to salve their conscience with a few tweaks).

It discourages development if your ideas are simply copied.

The idea of safety comes through in many posts but the idea of theft is less apparent - and maybe I did not make that side of the thread too clear.

I do find it very odd that Lewmar publish the dimensions of their Delta - yet the copies I see seem to be made by people who get their measurements by looking at an image through the wrong end of a telescope.


Jonathan
 
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In the context of anchors I didn't mention the problems of stolen IP for two reasons, first I felt that it was a subject of limited interest to forum members, and secondly unless the look alike is really an exact copy and is claimed to be the same you get into very expensive litigation which is probably not affordable. In fashion look alikes are very common with high street shops copying the 'looks'from the high fashion houses, is a look alike anchor any different if it does not claim to be identical to the copied article. Equally companies have different ideas about protecting IP, one I worked for did not patent anything, they preferred to just keep one step ahead of the competition, another company I worked for discovered a patent taken out by the major competitor did not affect them as they had documented prior knowledge so could use the technology with no penalty but would not have thought of it but for the competitors patent. IP is a minefield most would prefer to keep clear of.
 
FWIW.
I once saw an alleged copy of a Delta where the tip weight, on close inspection, turned out to be hollow!
I once had a copy of a Bruce. Dangerously unreliable, and caused (amongst other things) an unplanned tour of Newtown harbour. Tried to sell it, without success, tried to give it away, also without success, and finally dumped it in the scrap metal bin of the local Council yard. Which is probably the best place for all copies that haven't been rigorously tested.
 
J Neeves said:
But it was the idea that someone had spent, invested, time and probably money to get the design right and then finds someone is 'reverse engineering' (what a lovely word for theft) your ideas - and I note that Storyline feels for the designer. May anchors are made by small companies, Sapde, Mantus, Anchor Right, Bugel (or Wasi) even Fortress and Manson are hardly large and yet they are susceptible to theft (by someone who wants to make money by copying - maybe to salve their conscience with a few tweaks).
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Meh. If I had designed the Bugel I'd feel pretty cheesed off by just about every modern anchor in existence. The prices charged are extortionate as well. So no sympathy at all. Sorry.
 
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