Conwy to Liverpool

[Deej]

Hi all,

I am planning a passage from Conwy to Liverpool in a 25ft fin keel sail boat. It will be my first passage out of familiar waters so if anyone has the time to critique my thinking and offer any advice, it would be much appreciated.

Overall, I'm looking at going along the coast inshore of the windfarms and through the Rock Channel into the Mersey, at New Brighton. This looks like a more small boat-friendly route than the Queens channel.

The trip is about 45 miles. Assuming an average SOG of 5kt, it'll take 9 hrs. However, there are tidal gates at both ends and I will need to leave Conwy on one HW and enter Liverpool on the next. I want to make the trip in daylight so I need a day with an early HW at Conwy (e.g. 18th Sept, 2nd Oct).

I expect pilotage out of Conwy and up to the Great Orme to take about 1.5 hrs. After that, I plan some buoy hopping to Kinmell Bay green lateral -> North West Hoyle red lateral -> HE1 west cardinal and finally inshore of the Burbo windfarm to the mouth of the Rock Channel off New Brighton. The bit of the journey from the Orme to New Brighton should be about 6 hours with a foul but slackening tide for the first half. This isn't the most direct route but the buoys give me solid visual confirmation that I'm where I should be and avoids the drying areas around the mouth of the Dee, which I'll be passing close to LW.

Once through the Rock Channel, I'll be in the Mersey on a favourable tide but a little early for getting into the marina so I'll end up hanging around for a bit.

The passage looks fairly straightforward to me. The coast between the Great Orme and New Brighton looks benign but am I being naive? Would you do it differently and if so, how?

My chief dilemma is around Rock Channel vs Queens Channel. I don't have the pilotage for the Rock Channel so will need to get this sorted (can anyone help?). The buoys in the Queens channel are well charted and lit but the route there would take me much further offshore. I'm also not keen on mixing it with freighters and oil tankers.

Thanks,
Dave.

 

[Skylark]

Dave,

Perhaps you should try giving a telephone call to the sailing club at L'pool marina. Maybe one of the members will help your pilotage of the short cut route out of the Mersey.

The offshore route from the North Wales coast to the Mersey entrance is generally very straightforward, given appropriate attention to wind and tide.

An overnight passage can be an illuminating experience, given the often large number of commercial vessels anchored in Liverpool Bay waiting for the pilot and their turn for unloading. I'm not for a moment suggesting a night passage for your first entry!

Assuming that your vessel is fully equipped for such a passage and that your have a competent crew there's no reason why you should not have a great time. If I was in your position, I think that the weather would be my deciding factor. Of course, the autumn and winter weather are fast approaching and this may kill your plan. I know of at least one 22ft boat that makes a similar passage once a year, but generally in the settled weather season.

Good luck.

 

[Searush]

You'll need your engine going flat out to make the passage in that time in my view. I regularly did Heswall (on the Dee) to Conway (and back) in my 25' bilge keeler with the family. If it was under 12 hours, it was a good trip. As you say, the tides are important. You will need the last of the flood to make progress up the Mersey & for crossing the training bank by the Perch Rock.

The Mersey ebb is strong due to the volume of water up between Speke & Eastham. Wind over tide conditions (especially NW'ly over ebb) can make the river very uncomfortable - even on a Ferry Boat!

I would be inclined to take my time & leave Conway as late on the ebb as you can & aim to arrive at New Brighton at late flood. The inshore channel dries on Springs & may be a problem if you are deep draft. Be prepared to come in via the Bar if you are early on the flood. But please note, although I lived on the Wirral, I only sailed dinghies off the beach and that was 30 years ago.

Try a PM to Dogwatch, he still lives on the Wirral coast & may be more up to date, but remember the local lifeboats are tractor launched across MILES of hard sand or are Hovercraft.

 

[narcer]

Liverpool Marina

Once wintered my boat in Liverpool marina. At that time I´d never been into the marina before although I knew the Mersey having been in Northwich boatyard.

So, before I left Douglas IOM, I phoned the marina and spoke to the manager - Jeremy I think and there was a young guy there also just ready to take over the job. Beause I would be arriving on an early morning flood I wanted to make sure the lock-in would be good (it was around 07:00 ish on a week day. Trip across was fine, came up the main channel and on the approach to the marina called on the radio - nothing. Tried again and again until it was obvious they had forgot about me. I plugged it with a 7 hp motor up until it turned and then on the ebb they obviously arrived at work around 08:45 and I just got in - they were very UNPROFESSIONAL there for such a commercial river ! I hope it´s changed since then (1999).

So moral of my story is...when you arrive on the late flood make sure for the sake of your smokin´motor that they didn´t forget about you and go home !

Good luck !

 

[bigwow]

A handy transit for entering the rock channel is to line up the conspicuous gold dome between the two large blocks of flats at New Brighton and come in on that transit until you are 100yds off the perches then turn to port and head for the brazil bouy until you pass the perch by the lighthouse, as close as you like as the deepest water is close to the perch, starboard turn and you are in the Mersey. If you are too early for the lock, 2 hours each side of high water, the easiest thing to do is pick up the large bouy just past the fort, I think it’s marked WYC launch, and wait there for a convenient time to head up to the lock. Lock is maned for all lock times between 6am and 10pm.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

I recently did Menai to Liverpool in a MOBO.

The Queen's channel is very wide and the big ships can even overtake and still be a long way from you.

We went seaward of the wind farms as the water was smoother.

 

[Searush]

Major,
You were in a fast, planing, motor cat, OP is in a small sailing keel boat. His 5kts planned cruising speed is close to his hull speed. You were travelling between 2 & 3 times faster, cutting corners makes sense for a much slower vessel - provided he has the depth he needs.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Major,
You were in a fast, planing, motor cat, OP is in a small sailing keel boat. His 5kts planned cruising speed is close to his hull speed. You were travelling between 2 & 3 times faster, cutting corners makes sense for a much slower vessel - provided he has the depth he needs.

We did 8 knots in the Queen's channel and the Blyth is not a planing boat.

I just assumed you raggies liked open water away from the brown bits.

 

[Searush]

We did 8 knots in the Queen's channel and the Blyth is not a planing boat.

I just assumed you raggies liked open water away from the brown bits.

I'm happy as a sandboy in thin water, but I would run a mile in a keel boat like the OP has. However, he has already stated that he wishes to paddle round the edges. I just pointed out that he needs to make sure there is sufficient under his keel to allow for waves & the training revetment which seems to sink a few boats each year. Fortunately. Big Wow has given a detail transit on St Peter & Pauls New Brighton plus the blocks of flats on the Red Noses - so he should be oK if he follows that with the echo sounder on.

 

[bigwow]

We did 8 knots in the Queen's channel and the Blyth is not a planing boat.

I just assumed you raggies liked open water away from the brown bits.

Discovery was doing more than 8 knots in the Queens when I watched her on Saturday from my boat park on New Brighton beach! even though she was nearly sinking under the weight of caught fish; I had a lovely mackerel supper.

 

[DogWatch]

Try a PM to Dogwatch, he still lives on the Wirral coast & may be more up to date, but remember the local lifeboats are tractor launched across MILES of hard sand or are Hovercraft.

I'm very much out of touch in Liverpool Bay unfortunately. I haven't been there since about 1996/7, before the windfarms on N. Hoyle and Burbo anyway. I did used to use the Rock channel daily when I was working from Alfred Dock many moons ago, but would have to read up as when I read the original post last night I realised I have forgotten the route... I don't know if it would come flooding back once I got there, but there is no way I could confidently write out a passage today.

The trouble with this particular passage is lack of bolt holes on the way, especially off the N. Wales coast, Wirral has the Dee, Hilbre Swash and Hoylake, but this is League of Gentlemen stuff, the pilot books all tend to er on the 'these are for locals only' type places. If you are sailing a keel boat the swash is probably best if you need to hide for a bit, but it isn't brilliant shelter really.

I too am aiming to bring the boat around this way soon, stopping in Hoylake for a while to show her to family. I think I may bring her around for the Liverpool boat show, but I somehow imagine lashing her to a pontoon at Liverpool will be a bit of a premium at that time.

Bigwow, is there still a local buoy in the middle of the rock channel?

 

[bigwow]

Only buoy in the rock is a local racing one so I would not fancy your chances mooring on it.

 

[Deej]

Thanks

Lots of useful points, thanks all.

Also found some pilotage notes for the Rock Channel here.

Dave.