Convert liferaft from canister to valaise?

[SailBobSquarePants]

As for the dinghy - why not keep your easy-to-stow round-tail and get a proper solid one, doesn't need to be a wooden clinker built, but that would be ideal, for in and out and leave it on your mooring?

I totally agree that a liferaft is more than a nice to have.

The problem is that our 3.3 two-stroke outboard is just a little too heavy for our roundtail, and with me in the back it really wants to flip backwards unless there is always another person up front. And mounting the engine is extremely precarious, heart in mouth type stuff, and that is even at the dock. Basically, we just don't have faith in it - which we did with our previous Zodiac.

So it has to go...

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

With swmbo 'not so confident around boats' i dont think this sailor will be venturing out in the f6's to get round to the isles of scilly by tomorrow night type of sailing. so coastal pottering would be about the limit, as a rough guess, even a towed inflatable would be a better bet, as anything over a f4 then i don't think the boat would be leaving the marina, especially with the wife aboard.

But if i have read the post wrongly, and he's a 'robin knox johnston' sort of sailor, then apologies, and get that liferaft serviced.

Colvic - you would probably be right if she were a modern boat, but a Nich 32 is over 7 tons, with a small sail area and a full keel. She doesn't MOVE in less than a F3, and I don't need to reef until 22+ knots... So yes, we've had her out (me singlehanding basically) in F6s and (briefly) F7s...

To some degree she is the "wrong" boat, as her wind range for our use is limited, but hey, she's beautiful and we have an engine for when the wind dies to less than F3...

 

[Seajet]

SailBob,

I'd tend to stick to a ready ( maybe half inflated ? ) dinghy for coastal use; even a Nic' 32 benefits from weight saving; but a half day course on life raft training could do no harm and may do your girlfriend a lot of good; I've found the main cause of anxiety in less experienced people is not really knowing what's going on or how to react, so how about this and getting her to seriously take charge - MOB drill with you unable to help, as victim, ( not suggesting you aid realism by jumping over the side, a bucket & fender is preferable ) for example...

 

[Tranona]

SailBob,

I'd tend to stick to a ready ( maybe half inflated ? ) dinghy for coastal use; even a Nic' 32 benefits from weight saving; but a half day course on life raft training could do no harm and may do your girlfriend a lot of good; I've found the main cause of anxiety in less experienced people is not really knowing what's going on or how to react, so how about this and getting her to seriously take charge - MOB drill with you unable to help, as victim, ( not suggesting you aid realism by jumping over the side, a bucket & fender is preferable ) for example...

As I noted above, one outcome of doing the survival course is something like "Don't you ever get me into a real situation where I have to do that". Very effective preventative strategy. Seems to work as you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times a liferaaft is deployed in UK and Irish waters or on British yachts each year - some years none at all. And never Mum and Dad +2.4 on a family cruise.

 

[colvic987]

but hey, she's beautiful and we have an engine for when the wind dies to less than F3...

If that is your nic 32 in your signature (xanthe II), then i must agree with you a lovely boat, i had been tempted in the past by one, but couldnt justify as best for us.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Remove The Liferaft and Buy Survival Suits

Take the liferaft off the boat and store it ashore for those longer trips. Review how you sail (be honest) and address any weakness in you seamanship and navigation which increases the probability of needing a liferaft.

Finally, buy a couple of survival suits, which can be purchased second hand, for that unexpected event. They are designed to be donned over clothes. Practice putting them on and plan where to store them.

If you don't own a PLB buy one. If you mitigate against the loss of the liferaft functionality, as best as possible, the risk to you will be minimal.

 

[monkfish24]

I know I'm harping on with this and sticking to my guns but you really do have to put it into context.

A liferaft is a good security blanket but you really do need to have some sort of training to fully realise how hard it is. It is THE last resort and I mean THE. The old saying of you should only step up into a life raft is deservedly correct but if you look at the response times of RNLI, RN and Coastguard, factored against the time it really does take for a yacht to sink, say with a hole in the side. It starts becoming a bit of a nonsensical item when you are cruising on fine weather days.

Most accidents aruond the coast happen very quickly because the time margins of say, you realising you have a problem, attempting to tackle the problem, then realise a major problem is fast ensuing, is very small when the adrenaline is pumping.

I know, I've been in a situation like that and I can tell you the last thing I thought of was jumping into a liferaft and risking my chances in an uncontrollable vessel.

Your first thoughts are about averting the situation/ lessening the damage.

Your next thoughts are about boat preservation, key to your survival in any situation as it provides everything needed for your comfort and well being.

Second, once you realise that boat preservation is futile, is crew preservation. Lifejackets, grab bag, flares, mobile phone, credit card. Things you didn't even realise were important until your last minutes with your vessel.

Luckily I only got to that point as I was rescued by a passing motorboat. But not once did I think the liferaft would be a suitable option.

This occured outside Cowes entrance!

I'm just regailing you with this tale as It occured to me, hence my viewpoint.
BTW we were on a 22ft yacht with a 4 man liferaft stuck on it, in VERY light winds but a huge current.

 

[Tranona]

Not sure it is true that things happen suddenly - except with keels falling off or a collision. When you analyse the accounts you usually find a sequence of events and there is usually time to sort them out before the inevitable. In fact one of the downsides of our system of reporting is that it rarely reports the potential disasters that are solved by the crew, unless there is assistance from say the SAR or RNLI. Even then the reports only record the incident and not the details of the causes and action taken by the crew. Periodically individuals write up their experiences in the mags and these are useful to get an insight from the perspective of the participants.

 

[CharlesSwallow]

I got mine changed but am now regretting it as I need the locker space and the canister has been nicked!

Chas

 

[Pleiades]

Ditch the liferaft?

Lots of good stuff here about keeping out of trouble, avoiding having to need a liferaft and where to put it etc but some clarity needed methinks:-
Firstly, MAIB reports cannot properly be construed so as to evidence a decision to leave the liferaft at home. That is certainly not what MAIB reports are intended for. I don't see how to read such reports of lives saved in liferafts and sail to a conclusion that one should leave one's own liferaft in the garage! In fact the MAIB conclusions often EXPLICITLY RECOMMEND THAT A LIFERAFT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CARRIED in cases where small vessels without them founder in UK coastal waters. Professional seafarers have the benefit of many more sea miles under their keels than yachties so why not learn from their difficulties at sea - try for example putting "rescued from liferaft" into the RNLI web site - you will find many, many lives recently saved due to timely deployment of a liferaft in UK coastal and inshore waters - why choose to ignore that irrefutable evidence that liferafts can save lives.
Every regulatory body for professional seafarers worldwide recognizes or mandates liferaft carriage in small craft, as do the RYA MCA etc, etc so what is the best official advice for UK leisure sailers who don't do big bold passages?
Well there is no mystery here - the SOLAS V RECOMMENDATION for small craft operating INSHORE (within 10M of land/4 hours from refuge) is that a LIFERAFT, solely designed for saving life, sufficient to carry all on board, IS CARRIED. That seems persuasive to me.
Secondly - as to the suggestion that it won't work anyway, well the best UK MCA statistics on this indicate that up to 20% of liferafts may not be fitted correctly and MAY not work. So I prefer an 80% chance of my liferaft working to a certainty of it being 100% useless if I leave it behind in the garage.
Lastly - regarding survival suits - great for preserving heat loss when worn in a liferaft in cold seas but no substitute as they offer none of the key features which make a heavy, expensive, awkward to stow liferaft still worth the heft imho.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

 

[Tranona]

Their advice should be treated with some scepticism. It is the easy thing to say, but when you read the accounts of the deployment of rafts (both leisure and fishing boats) the overwhelming conclusion is that they are not very effective. The few that are effective are where the use was part of a planned abandon ship in benign conditions (like the Moody that was hit by a container ship). On the other hand even a planned abandon ship such as Creightons Naturally was a disaster.

The Ouzo report suggested a hydrostatically released raft MIGHT have been useful. However, that is just guesswork and there are (as far as I can see) no examples of successful deployment of hydrostatic releases on yachts.

The great strength of the MAIB reports is the amount of detail which enables the reader to cut through the headlines and make their own judgement on what happened. Then you can identify the sorts of situations where yachts are in danger of foundering and if a liferaft is deployed whether it was successful. After this kind of analysis you can only come to a rational conclusion that for the vast majority of yachtsmen, liferafts are a waste of time, space and money.

However decisions on safety equipment are not made on rational grounds, and in the case of liferafts become almost a non-decision given that they have fallen in price in real terms by getting on for 75% in the last 30 years or so.

 

[Ubergeekian]

try for example putting "rescued from liferaft" into the RNLI web site - you will find many, many lives recently saved due to timely deployment of a liferaft in UK coastal and inshore waters

Actually you'll find precisely three cases: 8th March 2011 (five fishermen, Alderney LB, boat didn't sink); 31st October 2010 (two fishermen, Ballyglass LB, small boat capsized); 4th February 2008 (three fishermen, Kirkwall LB, boat sank). That last case appears on around 40 different station pages, which is why there are fifty search results for three incidents.

So that looks like a rescue from a liferaft every year or two, and while I am sure that those involved were very glad they had them, I am not sure that ten rescued over four years counts as "many, many lives".

- why choose to ignore that irrefutable evidence that liferafts can save lives.

So does not going to sea in the first place.

Well there is no mystery here - the SOLAS V RECOMMENDATION for small craft operating INSHORE (within 10M of land/4 hours from refuge) is that a LIFERAFT, solely designed for saving life, sufficient to carry all on board, IS CARRIED. That seems persuasive to me.

Even on my WESTERLY JOUSTER (21')? On my HUNTER 490 (16')? On my YTHAN (11')? When the RNLI doesn't list ONE SINGLE CASE of lives saved from a yacht's liferaft?

 

[Tranona]

As noted earlier, same sort of story from over 15 years of MAIB and Irish equivalent reports.

What would be really interesting is sight of equivalent reports from, say, France, Portugal and Italy wher rafts are compulsory

 

[Pleiades]

Ditching the liferaft

Just had a quick count - I get to 10 lives directly saved just since 9/11/2009 in our waters due to the guys being plucked alive and well from their liferafts - if that is not sufficient to convince one that the garage back home is not a great place to mount the raft then I doubt if any statistics will. I do wonder however what Edward Heath and his four colleagues who survived a severe Channel gale in their raft in 1974 would have said if they had been advised by the Forum that a liferaft was "not effective." Or more recently the skipper of the Seaquest who survived when his small boat suddenly foundered 2 miles off St Catherines on 6/1/2011. But on the other hand, if we get any more of that heavy rain then a liferaft mounted on the garage roof with a suitable hydrostatic release device may be money well spent come the next flood...... provided of course the energy saving windmill dosn't chop it to bits........


Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

 

[Tranona]

Can you give reference to your cases and the circumstances surrounding them?

 

[lustyd]

In fact the MAIB conclusions often EXPLICITLY RECOMMEND THAT A LIFERAFT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CARRIED in cases where small vessels without them founder in UK coastal waters

The MAIB have to say what may have improved the situation in every incident. The fact that once or twice they have no other suggestion than to carry a life raft does not mean that those writing the words think everyone should carry a life raft.

You must remember that the vast majority of boat owners and users only go 10 miles from their marina berth. Those that actually need a liferaft on board know they do and will carry one. In most cases it's just that the owner was in the chandler with his xmas bonus and had already bought everything else.

I suspect the issue here is that the raft is already there and very few people would want to remove safety equipment. The real question should therefore be, if the OP didn't have a raft and was asking if he should buy one despite the yacht not having space etc. would any of us recommend he spend out for purchase cost plus potentially annual servicing for life?

I would say sell it, and use the money saved in servicing to help towards a marina berth which would solve the dinghy issue. I assume that the raft is serviced of course...

 

[Ubergeekian]

Just had a quick count - I get to 10 lives directly saved just since 9/11/2009 in our waters due to the guys being plucked alive and well from their liferafts - if that is not sufficient to convince one that the garage back home is not a great place to mount the raft then I doubt if any statistics will. I do wonder however what Edward Heath and his four colleagues who survived a severe Channel gale in their raft in 1974 would have said if they had been advised by the Forum that a liferaft was "not effective."

I haven't seen anyone claim that life rafts are ineffective, just as nobody claims that anti-venom is ineffective for snake bites. The key question is the likeliness of situations arising in which their effectiveness would be put to good use.

 

[Pleiades]

Ditching the liferaft?

The Morning Cloud sinking is an interesting case study -even if not so relevant perhaps to littler boats. Heath not on board but his delivery crew of seven lost 2 men overboard, 5 survived being washed up in their 4 man raft near Shoreham. The yacht had a six man raft which was lost overboard from a broken open locker when she was knocked down somewhere near the Owers. The crew thought the overcrowding in the raft hepled it survive the huge seas. Quoting from the Coroner's report - "The safe passage in a 4 man raft to a lee shore through very rough seas and finally through surf affords remarkable proof of the value of liferafts carried in yachts."
Sea Quest rescue was reported in Isle of Wight Gazette, date as given and other rescues were 9/11/09 (5 saved I believe) and 12/12/10 (4 saved from memory) and no I don't have shares in any liferaft company.

Just reading Heavy Weather sailing as I plod towards Portland Race - am on the laptop with 3 G dongle for connection. Scary stuff. Think I will stop reading.......
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

 

[Tranona]

You can always find examples of where liferafts have been or might have been effective. As Uber says that is not really the question (and actually the effectiveness in situations of yachts foundering is not well supported by the evidence).

You have to look at the circumstances surrounding their deployment or possible deployment. If you do that (unless your cases are different from the ones I have seen) they rarely involve typical coastal and X Channel sailors. Just about all founderings come about for 3 reasons - collision, structural failure and extreme adverse weather conditions. Almost all cases involve very experienced crews who are either pushing boats to the limits or involved in a collision (and these are very small in number). None involve Mum and Dad and 2.4 on their annual cruise (or doing anything else). Fire has been an issue in one recent incident (don't think the report is out yet) on a big MOBO with a professional crew. Nearly every other incident involved a sailing yacht. I have ignored fishing boats because their circumstances are very different from yachts. However one can learn quite a lot about the difficulties of deploying rafts from small fishing boats.

If you are doing a risk assessment of leisure sailing, foundering would be right at the bottom of the risk list - way below falling out of the dink, being hit by bits of boat like a boom or being washed overboard. So rationally a liferaft is not needed if that is the style of your sailing, nor should you rely on it being effective even if you do have to use it.

On the other hand if you habitually sail in extreme conditions, in a racing boat that is being pushed to the point of breaking (and get too close to big ships) you would be silly not to have one on board.