oldsaltoz
Well-Known Member
That's a lot of hull (53 footer) for just 10 grand so far, wonder what the reserve is.
Perhaps the owner gave up when he found out what it will cost for a 53 foot marina berth.
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- Thread starter westernman
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That's a lot of hull (53 footer) for just 10 grand so far, wonder what the reserve is.
Perhaps the owner gave up when he found out what it will cost for a 53 foot marina berth.
westernman
Well-Known Member
What advantage does aluminium have over steel?
Steel is easier to weld, cheaper and any place in the world can beat it back into shape, weld a new plate in etc. The same is not so true for aluminium.
Aluminium is of course lighter - but my perfect boat will be heavy displacement so I could not care less on that point......
Steel is easier to weld, cheaper and any place in the world can beat it back into shape, weld a new plate in etc. The same is not so true for aluminium.
Aluminium is of course lighter - but my perfect boat will be heavy displacement so I could not care less on that point......
mitiempo
Well-Known Member
"What advantage does aluminum have over steel?"
With aluminum there is not an unending quest to eliminate rust. Aluminum doesn't need painting above the waterline, there alone saving thousands over a steel boat. Steel boats rust from the inside out and aluminum has no such issues.
You say it doesn't matter if it's heavy? Weight in the hull is of no advantage after the needs for strength have been met. Weight belongs in the ballast. A steel boat will be heavier and for a given displacement will have less ballast and therefore be less seaworthy and not sail as well. Any boat built in steel would be better in aluminum and with the proper thickness plating equally strong as well as lighter. The heavier the boat regardless of design type the more sail area it needs and heavier gear to go with it. Aluminum is competitive in weight with fiberglass construction as small as 30'.
Aluminum is easy to weld though not quite as easy as steel and for repairs a small wire feed welder can be carried if you wish as it takes up little space. Aluminum is used worldwide so welders with experience are not that hard to find.
I think an aluminum boat would be probably have higher resale than steel if they were built to the same standard.
With aluminum there is not an unending quest to eliminate rust. Aluminum doesn't need painting above the waterline, there alone saving thousands over a steel boat. Steel boats rust from the inside out and aluminum has no such issues.
You say it doesn't matter if it's heavy? Weight in the hull is of no advantage after the needs for strength have been met. Weight belongs in the ballast. A steel boat will be heavier and for a given displacement will have less ballast and therefore be less seaworthy and not sail as well. Any boat built in steel would be better in aluminum and with the proper thickness plating equally strong as well as lighter. The heavier the boat regardless of design type the more sail area it needs and heavier gear to go with it. Aluminum is competitive in weight with fiberglass construction as small as 30'.
Aluminum is easy to weld though not quite as easy as steel and for repairs a small wire feed welder can be carried if you wish as it takes up little space. Aluminum is used worldwide so welders with experience are not that hard to find.
I think an aluminum boat would be probably have higher resale than steel if they were built to the same standard.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
since heavy displacement is a key objective, I suggest concrete or steel. one of the design issues with steel in smaller boats is the ratio between hull weight and ballast, but at 50 ft and wanting the heaviest displacement you can go to town both with plate thickness and ballast weight.
mitiempo
Well-Known Member
But equal strength and less weight with aluminum therefore more ballast and a better sailing boat - even at 50'. And no rust to deal with.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You would think with all these advantages the material would be popular for yachts - but it isn't. I wonder why?
You have ignored the negatives. There can be extreme electroysis problems. It is not easy to weld and get a good finish in the thicknesses used for boats of this size - particularly if you want a round bilge shape. For many the aesthetics of the more common hard chine shapes are less pleasing.
So the material is restricted to workboats where looks are less important, large size custom boats where the weight advantage is valued over the additional construction cost (which is small as a proportion of overall cost) and one or two niche builders such as Alubat in France - and the appeal there is probably as much in the style of boat as the material.
You can make an argument for all the materials so far mentioned but in the end it is the market that decides and it has consistently rejected aluminium over the 40 years or so that it has been offered for small and medium sized yachts.
mitiempo
Well-Known Member
We're talking custom building. If we're just discussing production boats it would be fiberglass 100 to 1. Aluminum is popular for custom built ocean cruisers in many places. New Zealand, Canada, as well as France and Germany. Round bilge boats are common outside of France. It isn't any harder to build round bilge in aluminum than steel. See 2 examples below built in B.C. No fillers were used in either the painted or the bare aluminum hull. There are a handful of excellent aluminum builders in B.C. These 2 are built by Deardon Marine.
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youen
Well-Known Member
hallberg rassy
Can somebody tell me if the HR 34 or 36 built between 1993 and 2006 are solid grp or cored hull.thanks
Can somebody tell me if the HR 34 or 36 built between 1993 and 2006 are solid grp or cored hull.thanks
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Agree there is a place for aluminium and good boats have been built in the material. However, it has never been accepted so well in Europe and particularly the UK. This is perhaps because there is not the skill base to build to the right standard, whereas a number of yards have the skills to build custom boats in wood composite. In Holland however there is a tradition of using metal, mainly because there was no local source of good quality wood in the past. There, however steel dominates although aluminium is popular with boats like the pastiche J class being built and for superstructures on steel motoryachts to keep weight down.
As I said you can make strong arguments for most materials, but for the type of boat that Michael is interested in the choice boils down to traditional wood or wood composite - with the odd one built in steel. Not surprising as owners of these boats are looking for different qualities from a rugged ocean cruiser or a lightweight flyer.
As I said you can make strong arguments for most materials, but for the type of boat that Michael is interested in the choice boils down to traditional wood or wood composite - with the odd one built in steel. Not surprising as owners of these boats are looking for different qualities from a rugged ocean cruiser or a lightweight flyer.
Stork_III
Well-Known Member
I believe the hulls of all HRs are solid, with internally applied insulation. The deck structures are mainly dynacell foam cored. Extract from spec for HR36 as follows:-
"Manufactured in a HR owned plant in Sweden. Hull and deck from GRP by hand-layup method, insulated above water. Gelcoat colour code is 1000. Isophtalic gelcoat is used in the hull as well as isophtalic polyester. Decks and coachroof areas are of sandwich type construction"
and for HR34 as follows:-
"Gelcoat colour: white 1000. Laminate construction of Hull: isophtalic gelcoat and isophtalic polyester resin is used. Hand lay-up method, insulated above water line against heat and cold. Integrated rubbing strake with brass strip. Blue decorative band in gelcoat. Strong floor reinforcements. Deep bilge. The boat has a bolt on lead keel with 10 stainless keel bolts. Deck and coachroof areas and also cockpit are of sandwich construction laminated to the hull to form a one piece construction."
HR website gives details. My HR31 and HR34 both seem to conform to this. Still looking I guess?
TQA
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One advantage to steel and ali. boats is the ease and speed with which modifications can be made.
Want a different stern layout or a bigger cockpit, a few days with the gas axe and the welder and away you go with the same degree of hull integrity as the boat had when brand new.
Not a big plus for a mass producton boat but for a one off?? might be a consideration.
Want a different stern layout or a bigger cockpit, a few days with the gas axe and the welder and away you go with the same degree of hull integrity as the boat had when brand new.
Not a big plus for a mass producton boat but for a one off?? might be a consideration.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
I'm sure I read somewhere that HR, unlike the other Swedes, had finally gone over to foam sandwich topsides.
fishermantwo
Well-Known Member
I think just the cost of lead for the keel would be the killer. First class workmanship in the hull though. Shame its so big. It would swing on my mooring just fine but just too big to day sail.
Bobobolinsky
Well-Known Member
My steel boat is getting 3 tonnes of waste chromium ore from a truck wash pit. Wouldn't want to to buy it, but for free is my kinda price.
Unless my crew are very slow it takes a bit longer than a few days to make modifications and my boat has been under modification for 9 months now
Perhaps some biggish mods, loosing centre board, loosing wing keels, loosing flightdeck, gaining 700mm on the keel and 3tonnes of ballast.
Steel is easy to work, argon on ally and equipment is much more expensive
Stork_III
Well-Known Member
HR have used foam sandwich with dynacell foam for many years in decks. Most other swedes use sandwich construction, Najad foam, but Malo used end grain balsa.
Latest HR may have foam hull above waterline, not sure.
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Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
I don't think you are right. That is not what I was told at the boat show this year. The hulls are sandwich right down to the keel. One of the swedish builders also uses balsa. Teak decks are also still screwed.......
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Think you are right about the foam cored hulls, but I don't know when they started. Not sure about the teak decks. The newer models from the 37 are pre-made panels vacuum bagged onto the decks just like Bavaria. Understand they use staples on the underside of the panel to hold the strips in place while they are bonded. If they don't take them out, should be fun when the teak wears down! Another challenge for teak deck replacers in 15 years time!