Considering a long keel...

One of the truths that is lost in boat selection is the truth about what sort of sailing and living aboard one is going to ACTUALLY do.

The truth is that even people cruising round the world spend very little of their time actually sailing. They spend even less of it sailing in the Southern Ocean! They even don't spend that much time sailing downwind in the trades, but as one tends to spend several weeks sailing downwind, that time tends to stick in the mind. Even people sailing in their home waters spend more time beating to windward than any other point of sail, manoeuvring in and out of harbours and try to avoid sailing in rough weather but then go and buy a boat that is good for long downwind passages and is challenging in close quarters stuff! In every yacht club bar you can hear them extolling the virtues of their choice - and failing to see that many other boats have exactly the same virtues but perform rather better in the sailing and living on board you actually do.

What I am getting to is that people make broad reaching conclusions about what boat they are going to buy based on the wrong data. The truth is that most of us need a boat that is conservative and not 'flighty' in terms of course holding. All or nearly all long keeled boats meet this criteria (but so do lots of fin keeled boats). Some people then dismiss all fin keeled boats on the basis that some of the more extreme examples are hard work to steer, slam in a seaway and broach too easily. I would rather choose with more weight given to the criteria of good design with good accommodation that is built strongly enough. I have realised that if I had a free choice for my 'going round the world yacht' OR my 'sail in home waters yacht' I might very well choose a deck saloon because 90% of your time is spent at anchor or just living on board and a well ventilated deck saloon is a nice place to be - whether at your home berth or in the tropics. I am assuming we are discussing an out and out cruising boat here? And I ought to point out that plenty of fin keeled boats have deep bilges. Ours even has some of the water tankage there...

The analogy with vintage motorcycles and wheels is only true inasmuch as just as modern motorcycles still have wheels, so boats still have keels. No-one would think of putting a vintage wheel on a modern Ducatti. Wheel technology has moved on just as keel technology has moved on.

As in previous discussions on this subject I will yet again point out that I actually like some long keeled boats and I have owned and sailed long keeled boats. However I am trying to bring a sense of reason into the debate and try to persuade people not to be starry eyed over long keels for the wrong reasons.

But as boat owning and sailing are such unreasonable passions, I suppose its a vain hope to think that reason will come into any discussion about what sort of keel one ought to have....

With respect to Rossynant his argument about rolling moments etc etc can apply to moderately designed fin keeled boats just as easily as 'long keels'. If long keels really were faster then fin keels and had the benefits then races round the world using downwind routes would have at least some boats entered with long keels. The extra drag from wetted area will always make them slower and counter any theoretical benefits in 'some' conditions.
 
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Could not agree more, John. However you forget that people don't always buy for rational reasons. Don't forget one of the major attractions of these boats is that they are cheap. 40 years ago a Nic 32 was the preserve of the rich, now the price of afamily car. A 26' longkeeler capable of serious cruising for therice of a used family car. So not surprising some people find them attractive. Suspect today's equivalent of the 1960s Nic 32 buyer would not buy one. Having a couple of hundred know to spend widens choices!
 
john_morris_uk said:
With respect to Rossynant his argument about rolling moments etc etc can apply to moderately designed fin keeled boats just as easily as 'long keels'.
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Exactly :)
Have You noticed I started by showing boat that would be deemed "longkeel" - while she's "moderately designed fin", even with spade rudder? Very nice at sea, my favourite. It's not about definitions, but people often get confused with them.

As Tranona said, for many price is main reason for choosing a boat. And still some people tend to narrow their choice for the ideas like 'longkeel is safe', or 'finkeel is fast upwind', losing opportunity to buy the best boat available for money. For instance above mentioned Nic 32 is a kind of obsolete racer - cramped and undercanvassed while not having desirable characteristics of 'longkeel' - safe boat and well built but I wouldn't take it for long distance cruise myself... :o
In cheaper, older boats of still good quality there are moderate finkeels with similar seaworthiness or better than "longkeel" racer, while easier to handle; may also be better choice for other reason - more room, or lower price, or condition.
Other way around - there are roomy, comfy boats well made, often turned down for being 'slow longkeelers'...
 
When we sold our cruising cat the whole family did the hunt for the next boat. In every brokers' listing or yard we visited they kept choosing the long keeled ones. Finally they persuaded me and we bought the Kipper. I have no idea if it's better in a force 8 than a fin keel, frankly I don't care because I suspect 95% of all production yachts will cope OK with a force 8. The sole criteria for my choice was that the family loved it because more than anything else in the world I love to go sailing with my family. Actually I have no idea why they were drawn instinctively to long keeler's, but from the five year old upwards it's what they chose. I suspect that it looking 'right' has something to do with it, it does change the inside profile as well and allows wider beam to be carried further forward. We live on board for 10-12 weeks a year so it was vital to get the choice right and for our young family I reckon they chose wisely, even if it took me a while to come round to the idea.
 
wotayottie said:
Its inevitable when you have lots of posters on here who are elderly and fixed in their traditional views. Its also the case that any boat, however much of a dog it is, will have someone on here who loves it dearly and will speak up for it. Sailors are romantics after all.

Just think - you get enthusiasts on here for Seagull outboards, something with the technology of a 1930s motorcycle. There are small numbers still going for things like dead eyes, and gaff rig. And for old style wooden hulls - a method of construction that had its heyday in the 1890s when there wasnt any real alternative. . And that era is of course where the long keel comes from . Its a keel shape and hull design which fits well with timber construction and the limitations this in its traditional form puts on shapes.

We know a great deal more nowadays about foil shape and hydrodynamics, one reason why no mass manufacturer feels the need to offer long keel boats. Avocet lists what he sees as the advantages of a long keel and some of them I can agree with - after all, even a Seagull o/b has some plusses. Most point are not in my view linked to a long keel shape.

So 1 is correct - a long keel will give greater directional stability or on the other side of the coin worse ability to turn and tack. 2& 3 are nothing to do with a long keel and 4 is only connected to encapsulated keels or to people who worry. 5 isnt related to keel length but 6 is correct if the rudder is attached to the keel - it isnt on all long keels like the Vancouver for example. 8 could be a long keel benefit if the long keel is nice and level. 7 and 9 are all about hull design as well as keel shape. But I reckon he has missed out the biggest single advantage , the way in which a long keel resists being blown sideways at low speed when the deep fin loses effectiveness.

As for disadvantages 1,3,6 and 7 are unarguable. 4 relates to encapsulated grp keels and would worry me more than keel bolts - I once saw a boat with an encapsulated keel legging it as fast as he could go to the travel hoist after just one night of being too near a shingle bottom. 6 is also an issue - I once saw Suffolk Yacht Harbour drop a new Island packet because the travelhoist slings slipped forwards and backwards along the keel.

But to me, the real issue is handling. I want my boat to handle with the same sort of lightness, ease and performance as I want my sports car or motorbike. I dont want a caravan with a keel that lumbers slowly along. I am never going to go anywhere near the southern ocean so I dont want a boat designed to cope with the southern ocean - I want a boat for coast hopping round the UK and france and spain and which gives me enjoyment through its handling whilst doing so.
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Pretty much entirely agree, particularly about the point about long-keelers retaining control at very low speeds when berthing whilst modern AWBs make lots of leeway (at ultra-low speeds) and have the bows blow off very fast.

I have owned a heavy long-keeler, and now have an AWB. The present boat is worse in heavyish weather, but gets there. Curiously though I have had more troubles in tight marina spaces with the AWB than ever with a long-keeler, as it really does suffer from bows-blow-off at very low speeds. For actual sailing and comfort in the sort of conditions I like to sail in these days the modern boat is however far better.

My long-keeler, and quite a few others I have sailed, just went one way in astern. The only semblance of control astern you could achieve was by getting way on astern quickly with a solid blip of power, then going into tickover or neutral. The only long-keeler I have ever known that you could genuinely steer astern was a Vancouver, which has a much bigger than usual separation between keel and rudder blade.

Although on most long-keelers you can only go one way in astern, you can 360 turn in very little space with alternating fwd/astern, and without drifting as far downwind as you do in a no-grip-on-the-water AWB doing the same manouevre.
 
Tranona said:
Could not agree more, John. However you forget that people don't always buy for rational reasons. Don't forget one of the major attractions of these boats is that they are cheap. 40 years ago a Nic 32 was the preserve of the rich, now the price of afamily car. A 26' longkeeler capable of serious cruising for therice of a used family car. So not surprising some people find them attractive. Suspect today's equivalent of the 1960s Nic 32 buyer would not buy one. Having a couple of hundred know to spend widens choices!
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Precisely - but I would classify a Nicholson 32 as a fin keeled boat! Its moderate fin, but built like the proverbial outhouse. A very good friend has one and we looked at a couple before we found Serendipity.

So why did we end up with Serendipity?

The real answer is that she was a LOT of boat for the money and ticked ALL of the boxes we had on our list. Unsurprisingly those boxes were more about accommodation and features than the length of the keel! However reasonable sailing performance WAS high on the list. We enjoy sailing and we were moving on and up from a Sigma 33 which most people know sail like a dream.

We get away from the lack of deck saloon by having a very nice cockpit table for al fresco living. Shelter is provided by a cockpit tent which is going to be replaced by a Bimini with zip on sides etc. Life for those of us on limited means is always a compromise.

Anyway, we digress from the OP's question. And to go back to answering him, the Biscay 36 is a great boat but it hasn't got as much room inside as other 36 foot boats and you will have to put up with the handling etc for not a lot of benefit in my humble opinion.
 
This is an age old debate and a full defence for all views can be found on this forum. However , for the benefit of the OP, I must add that if close quarters maneuvering under sail is your game - and I mean really close - then give me a long keel any day.
 
John, useful input there, thanks. The OP is not desperately concerned with speed or ultimate pointing ability and isn't fazed by the manoeuverability points, just curious to know what to expect. Precise handling under sail is valued. Looks certainly matter and I don't generally admire the run of the mill AWBs (after all, a boat with no sheer is like a face without a smile) but I do value solidity of build and sturdiness. If I could afford it I'd have a Bowman 40, She 36 (I know, fin & skeg but just too beautiful to pass by) , Vic/Vancouver. I loved my Sadler except she couldn't be trimmed hands off for more than a few seconds which isn't ideal for a single-hander and wasn't too stable directionally on a fast run (that nipped in stern I expect). Most of my sailing will be far from the S Ocean - quite the opposite in fact, the N Sea and E Coast rivers so some might say the Biscay is the wrong tool for the job but as said above 90% of the time is at anchor so that should influence the choice. She will do long distances - Atlantic first - if dreams turn into reality. I did that once before in a 1978ish 42ft aluminium S & S design with what would now be called a longish fin (not unlike the Sadler) and the damn thing had to be steered every inch of the way - no autopilots then, and it was hard work for 4 of us. It carried no way and when beating every wave just stopped it, I don't recall it slamming but it was strong as a tank and took us through the tail end of a degraded hurricane, all of F10 with no concerns for the vessel at all. Seaworthy she was, seakindly wasn't in it. She'd have exhausted a singlehander - even two up, on a boisterous passage from Hamble to France. I don't want one of those.

Of course I'd like a bit more space than the Biscay offers but not half of an acre of saloon with no handholds, a galley running the entire length of the boat and an A4 size "nav station". Modernity is fine if it is functional, if it is a style statement or willy waving I'm not buying.

This is mostly about personal liking really, just as I'd prefer a 1980 BMW to some 190mph Handawanki 1200 with a 14.000 redline and yellow alloy wheels. I know who'll get to Cornwall first, plus be able to walk into the pub on arrival and not have to crawl in agony...I'd love - that is LOVE a Model 8 or 9 Sunbeam which is analogous to the Gaffer I'd also love but you'd be unlikely to buy either for long distance cruising though with plenty of care they'd do it but maintenance, repairs and availability of components would always be a challenge. If I won the Lottery there's a schooner that used to be called Jessica which is simply the most heartbreakingly beautiful thing that ever carried a sail...and sod the expense!

If I could find a Bowman - as if - for the same money (or a She 36 that wasn't totally shagged) I'd have it, but you have to go with what the market (and your wallet) offers.

Anyway, the market doesn't offer much in the way of the better sort of AWB at that level either so the choice is somewhat directed towards what is, after all, my preference in style anyway...

Any other suggestions as far as boat type gratefully welcomed. Looking at £40K price tags and below.
 
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MASH said:
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Thinking of going from a fin keel Sadler to this long keeler - both with fixed 3 blade props.

I've not used a long keel for 30 years - anyone care to describe how different I'm going to find it as a mostly singlehander? Will there be things I used to do but just won't be able to with a long keel? Clearly one gets used to a boat's handling characteristics with practice, will the long-keel's lack of manoeuverability in astern be a lasting handicap? Is handling in ahead much different?

It is said the ride will be easier and smoother too - much different or is this a bit overstated?

Views & opinions appreciated.
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Highly recommended sea kindly boat as most long keelers are, well all i have sailed so far.
 
Keep saying it and some people will end up believing it!

Lets just say that there are some absolute DOG's of long keeled boats out there and ignore the fact that there are some delightfully mannered moderate keel boats - just to keep the prejudice going from some parties...

However if you are looking around for potential boats that will cross oceans and not cost too much:

Depending on your taste and budget, many of the Nicholsons are delightful sailing boats. I have spent many days crossing oceans in Nicholson 55's which are FIN KEELED and track beautifully. I have already mentioned Nicholson 32's etc.

I know that I have a Westerly but there are lots of the 70's and 80's Westerly's that sail well and have many of the attributes people are extolling without the problems of lack of manoeuvrability of longer keels. How about this sort of thing? http://www.ybw-boatsforsale.com/boat/yacht/sailboat/w/europe/greece/westerly-conway-323678.html

Westerly Fulmars sail beautifully and I never had an issue with one wondering off course all the time so long as your sail trim is reasonable. A bit of elastic on the helm and she would steer herself for ages.

Some of the Bruce Roberts designs have fullish keels and yet come without all the the bad handling characteristics of some long keeled versions.

Some people extoll the virtues of Contessa 32's and I admit that they do sail nicely - but they are poky down below and I am not convinced they are worth the premium you pay for one.

A friend's boat called 'Balkis' is an Excalibar. Its was designed as an ocean racer in the 70's with a generous encapsulated lead fin keel and tracks fantastically. 36' long and has made at least two Atlantic circuits so far. Rather traditional but built very strongly and sails well. Some had wheels and some had tillers. Reasonably priced go anywhere boat.
 
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>I don't believe that the amount of prop walk has anything to do with keel length.

It has everythig to do with keel length. When you reverse a fin keel boat there is clear water in front and behind the keel, thus the water flows immediately over the rudder and there is little or no prop walk. On a long keeler there is clear water behind the prop but not in front because it is attached to the back of the keel and thus you don't get water flow over the rudder and the prop walk takes over. But it can be handled as mentioned in my previous post.

>Long keeled boats are NOT inherently more sea kindly than a moderate fin keeled hull.

They are more sea kindly, not just the motion dampened by the weight but also they don't broach, don't turn into wind in a gust and don't surf, all of which fin keelers do. That's why they make good short handed long distance boats because you can sleep at night not worrying about the things I mentioned, which is why we bought one.

You are right design has moved on. Sailing used to be a male preserve but the builders thought they could sell more boats if they were more woman freindly. The key determinent for women is a large aft cabin which is why AWB's have them. It was very clever marketing.

As usual with most things people choose different things for different reasons, every one to their own. We chose a heavy displacement boat for long distances but if I was coastal sailing I would buy an AWB. I don't see why anybody would knock any type of boat.
 
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KellysEye said:
>I don't believe that the amount of prop walk has anything to do with keel length.

It has everythig to do with keel length. When you reverse a fin keel boat there is clear water in front and behind the keel, thus the water flows immediately over the rudder and there is little or no prop walk. On a long keeler there is clear water behind the prop but not in front because it is attached to the back of the keel and thus you don't get water flow over the rudder and the prop walk takes over. But it can be handled as mentioned in my previous post.

>Long keeled boats are NOT inherently more sea kindly than a moderate fin keeled hull.

They are more sea kindly, not just the motion dampened by the weight but also they don't broach, don't turn into wind in a gust and don't surf, all of which fin keelers do. That's why they make good short handed long distance boats because you can sleep at night not worrying about the things I mentioned, which is why we bought one.

You are right design has moved on. Sailing used to be a male preserve but the builders thought they could sell more boats if they were more woman freindly. The key determinent for women is a large aft cabin which is why AWB's have them. It was very clever marketing.

As usual with most things people choose different things for different reasons, every one to their own. We chose a heavy displacement boat for long distances but if I was coastal sailing I would buy an AWB. I don't see why anybody would knock any type of boat.
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Well thought out & well said BZ.
 
KellysEye said:
>I don't believe that the amount of prop walk has anything to do with keel length.

It has everythig to do with keel length. When you reverse a fin keel boat there is clear water in front and behind the keel, thus the water flows immediately over the rudder and there is little or no prop walk. On a long keeler there is clear water behind the prop but not in front because it is attached to the back of the keel and thus you don't get water flow over the rudder and the prop walk takes over. But it can be handled as mentioned in my previous post.

>Long keeled boats are NOT inherently more sea kindly than a moderate fin keeled hull.

They are more sea kindly, not just the motion dampened by the weight but also they don't broach, don't turn into wind in a gust and don't surf, all of which fin keelers do. That's why they make good short handed long distance boats because you can sleep at night not worrying about the things I mentioned, which is why we bought one.

You are right design has moved on. Sailing used to be a male preserve but the builders thought they could sell more boats if they were more woman freindly. The key determinent for women is a large aft cabin which is why AWB's have them. It was very clever marketing.

As usual with most things people choose different things for different reasons, every one to their own. We chose a heavy displacement boat for long distances but if I was coastal sailing I would buy an AWB. I don't see why anybody would knock any type of boat.
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Spot on....
 
wotayottie said:
boat most likely will be a lot slower.

out of curiosity, why are you thinking of going that way? it's a bit like deciding to move back to black and white TV - the world has moved on. long keels are obsolete designs.
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you have never owned a long keeler then,as for obsolete maybe in the marina bar but not at sea 100+ miles of the coast
 
KellysEye said:
> I don't see why anybody would knock any type of boat.
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+1
We need appreciate that there are different designs for different purposes to satisfy different trends and fashions. I have sailed all kinds of boats; fin, bilge, tween, long, cut away, lift; they all have their strong and weak points. The aim is to fully understand their limitations and capitalise on their specific design abilities.

I have enjoyed sailing all designs and I look forward to new more efficient designs. I own a 42 year old Tween keeler with well known disadvantages and advantages; my challenge is to find the optimum angle closest to the wind and if all fails, I turn on the engine.

My previous boat was a deep draft blue water Bruce Roberts, and my challenge was to ensure that I didn't hit bottom and grounded too often. Those who are too dogmatic about a particular design are either very experienced with all designs or don't have a clue at all.
 
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
+1
We need appreciate that there are different designs for different purposes to satisfy different trends and fashions. I have sailed all kinds of boats; fin, bilge, tween, long, cut away, lift; they all have their strong and weak points. The aim is to fully understand their limitations and capitalise on their specific design abilities.

I have enjoyed sailing all designs and I look forward to new more efficient designs. I own a 42 year old Tween keeler with well known disadvantages and advantages; my challenge is to find the optimum angle closest to the wind and if all fails, I turn on the engine.

My previous boat was a deep draft blue water Bruce Roberts, and my challenge was to ensure that I didn't hit bottom and grounded too often. Those who are too dogm

atic about a particular design are either very experienced with all designs or don't have a clue at all.
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What's a Tween keeler?
 
I very much regret that it appears that people don't read what I have written.

I think we will have to disagree over prop walk - I just note that its one of the most misunderstood things in boats. (Perhaps you can explain why it occurs and if you succeed then you will see that you might have been mistaken in your post?)

Just by keeping saying that long keels are always more sea-kindly doesn't make it true. Whilst what you say about plastic boats with fin keels and fat bottoms is true for SOME fin keeled boats it doesn't apply to any of the fin keeled boats that I referred to. And fin keeled boats don't all broach either - at least no more than you can broach a long keeled boat. And yes you can broach a long keeled boat as well. I have raced some long keels and we managed some spectacular broaches. They might not have been as violent as some you get in modern lightweight fliers, but they were still broaches...

So I will re-iterate: there are plenty of moderately designed, fin keeled, sea kindly boats about - but it seems that ignoring them suits people's prejudices.

The trouble I have with all this discussion is that I actually like some long keeled boats and I enjoy sailing them. But I try not to have preconceived ideas about their their qualities and extol them for virtues that they don't uniquely possess. They also have disadvantages that are conveniently ignored by the rose tinted spectacles of their followers. In fact some of the disadvantages are extolled as virtues...!

KellysEye said:
>I don't believe that the amount of prop walk has anything to do with keel length.

It has everythig to do with keel length. When you reverse a fin keel boat there is clear water in front and behind the keel, thus the water flows immediately over the rudder and there is little or no prop walk. On a long keeler there is clear water behind the prop but not in front because it is attached to the back of the keel and thus you don't get water flow over the rudder and the prop walk takes over. But it can be handled as mentioned in my previous post.

>Long keeled boats are NOT inherently more sea kindly than a moderate fin keeled hull.

They are more sea kindly, not just the motion dampened by the weight but also they don't broach, don't turn into wind in a gust and don't surf, all of which fin keelers do. That's why they make good short handed long distance boats because you can sleep at night not worrying about the things I mentioned, which is why we bought one.

You are right design has moved on. Sailing used to be a male preserve but the builders thought they could sell more boats if they were more woman freindly. The key determinent for women is a large aft cabin which is why AWB's have them. It was very clever marketing.

As usual with most things people choose different things for different reasons, every one to their own. We chose a heavy displacement boat for long distances but if I was coastal sailing I would buy an AWB. I don't see why anybody would knock any type of boat.
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