Considering a long keel...

KellysEye said:
... never broached, turned in to wind or surfed as I said. Another poster here said the same. Ask around others who have long keelers and they will say the same. I can't understand why you won't accept it.
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My 8.1 metre oa, wooden, 1946-launched, Dutch, long-keeler certainly surfs. Over 8 knots across Start Bay when I was thinking it was probably time to take down the spinnaker. Broached/turned into wind? Well, there was that 35 knot squall that came out of nowhere when we had full sail up on a beam reach - almost flat in the water and definitely not pointing where we meant to go, and the rubber dinghy flying on the end of its painter - does that count?

I have a long-keeler because I think it looks pretty and sails nicely, and I like wood. (not so keen on varnishing, though ...)
 
>My 8.1 metre oa, wooden, 1946-launched, Dutch, long-keeler certainly surfs. Over 8 knots across Start Bay when I was thinking it was probably time to take down the spinnaker. Broached/turned into wind? Well, there was that 35 knot squall that came out of nowhere when we had full sail up on a beam reach - almost flat in the water and definitely not pointing where we meant to go, and the rubber dinghy flying on the end of its painter - does that count? I have a long-keeler because I think it looks pretty and sailsicely, and I like wood.

I'm not surprised you surfed and broached because the boat is relatively small and light beacause of the wood build, sounds like a nice boat. I was talking about heavy displacement boats, which ours was.
 
KellysEye said:
I don't see the need for hyonamic details. Because you made claims about it that weren't true - but I'm not going to die in a ditch over this. We will have to agree to differ. Prop walk is prop walk and everbody knows what it is. Yes I also know what it is - but that doesn't answer your original claims. I am losing the will to live over this - lets just drop it?

>Yes you can broach a long keeled boat. It's silly to suggest otherwise. (Just to check we are talking about the same thing: Broach usually refers to an uncontrolled action of the boat where it rounds up as the rudder loses its ability to keep the boat on course.

You are still wrong about this, we sailed some 8,000 miles in our long keeler and never broached, turned in to wind or surfed as I said. Another poster here said the same. Ask around others who have long keelers and they will say the same. I can't understand why you won't accept it.
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You claimed that long keeled boats don't broach. If you are saying you have never broached your long keel boat then who am I to disagree. However that is not the same as the general claim that long keeled boats don't broach. I've broached one whilst racing - and I note that someone else has now admitted they broached their's once or twice. So there's no need to become frustrated and ask why I won't accept your claim as 'irrefutable fact'. It might have been true for you and the way you sail your boat, but it isn't true as a general rule which is what you seemed to be claiming.

I'm not even going to go into how many miles I've sailed - its a silly willy waving competition that doesn't become either of us. Lets just say its of a different order of magnitude and I'll leave you to guess which way.

I don't think there's any point in me saying anything else is there? By the way I agree with Avocet, whenever I've broached in a traditional or long keeled boat its been a fairly leisurely experience compared to some of the racing boats I've been on.
 
wotayottie said:
Of course, that is always possible but given that what has happened is just a refinement of design based on growing technical competence, it seems unlikely to be the case. To use an aircraft analogy, can you imagine planes going back to wire supported double wings? Or car engines going back to sidevalves? I can't. In both cases the way they work is essentially the same and all that has happened is the development of a better was of achieveing the desired result.

Which is not to say that there wont be a small number of die hards wanting the old way of doing things. Morgan cars have made a living out of that.
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Sailing is the old way of doing things. In the modern world you start up the diesel engine. There are almost no working boats which use sails any more. Sailing is just for fun - for the diehards.

Most people go sailing because they like at least some part of the old way of doing things. After that, it all comes down to degree.

For me, I like doing things the way they did at the pinnacle of technology during the sailing age. This was the Bristol Channel Pilot cutter. After that sailing boats everywhere were replaced by boats with engines. Only a few poor people were left using run down old boats with sails.

I can understand that some people like more technologically advanced boat designs like the Open 60s used in the Vendee Globe - but that kind of sailing for me loses an awful lot of the romantiscm which is why I go sailing. Everything else is kind of in between - neither one or the other - and not much point (that should raise a lot of flack ;-)

I used to sail a Hobie FX 1 catamaran. Not much romantiscm in that - but that is serious sport and serious adrenalin.
 
michaelchapman said:
Sailing is the old way of doing things. In the modern world you start up the diesel engine. There are almost no working boats which use sails any more. Sailing is just for fun - for the diehards.

Most people go sailing because they like at least some part of the old way of doing things. After that, it all comes down to degree.

For me, I like doing things the way they did at the pinnacle of technology during the sailing age. This was the Bristol Channel Pilot cutter. After that sailing boats everywhere were replaced by boats with engines. Only a few poor people were left using run down old boats with sails.

I can understand that some people like more technologically advanced boat designs like the Open 60s used in the Vendee Globe - but that kind of sailing for me loses an awful lot of the romantiscm which is why I go sailing. Everything else is kind of in between - neither one or the other - and not much point (that should raise a lot of flack ;-)

I used to sail a Hobie FX 1 catamaran. Not much romantiscm in that - but that is serious sport and serious adrenalin.
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Thats your choice you old romantic you! :D I can quite understand what you are saying - old boats are fascinating as are the ways in which they were operated in their heyday. Liking old boats is entirely analagous to liking old classic cars and old motorbikes.

But sailing itself is more than just the current recreation of an old means of transport. Its a bit like cycling, a once serious form of transport that has changed into a large scale hobby. And just as bikes have moved on in technology so have sailing boats


The pilot cutters might have been the height of wooden sailing boat technology in their day but we have moved on and will continue to progress.
 
jamie N said:
Are there people on this thread who are intimating that the Folkboat is a poor design?:rolleyes:
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If you are in the market for a 26 foot round the cans boat then a Folkboat is a poor design. But that's a silly answer. A Folkboat is good at what it does. If that's what you want it's a great design. If you want standing headroom in a 26 foot boat with similar sailing characteristics then a SCOD might suit you more? If you want lots of accommodation you might buy a Centaur. It's not a question of bad design; its just different boats tick different boxes. Folkboats look very pretty, sail nicely but aren't as roomy down below and they won't often win races against some lightweight 26 footers. None of this makes them a 'bad design'!
 
john_morris_uk said:
A Folkboat is good at what it does.
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Yup.
Original Folkboat was a weekend racer - and no longer serves this purpose, though it's still a class racer. Otherwise she's cramped, wet and miserable for cruising (I happen to know original...). But she is proper seaboat, seaworthy, safe.
Most similar boats made later in plastic had raised freeboards, bigger coach roofs, extra feet or two added to provide some room, and still having the seawortiness. These boats went all-over, with no worries.
She will get anywhere, can enter small places often very interesting, can cope with groundings, flotsam, fishnets and such; easy to handle, cheap to maintain, simply and strongly made. In such a small size safety at sea becomes crucial and folkboat kind delivers. Should it blow F10 - batten your hatches and sleep it over.

Now show me a small contemporary boat capable of this all. And for this price :p
 
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john_morris_uk said:
If you are in the market for a 26 foot round the cans boat then a Folkboat is a poor design. But that's a silly answer. A Folkboat is good at what it does. If that's what you want it's a great design. If you want standing headroom in a 26 foot boat with similar sailing characteristics then a SCOD might suit you more? If you want lots of accommodation you might buy a Centaur. It's not a question of bad design; its just different boats tick different boxes. Folkboats look very pretty, sail nicely but aren't as roomy down below and they won't often win races against some lightweight 26 footers. None of this makes them a 'bad design'!
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A genuine Folkboat is 25ft. Wonderful boats, of their time. Also happens to be the first boat that I built from scratch, and my first real yacht. Many, many boats were / are derived from the original design.
 
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The Winston Churchill was thrown down the face of a wave and smashed open in the '98 Sydney Hobart, some more contemporary designs got through OK, some were also wrecked. The truth is that if you're unlucky then your number is up .... peroid .... you're at the mercy of the sea. Boats have always been lost at sea, it's not something that suddenly started when people stopped building boats with long keels.

A semi-submerged shipping container has a nice gentle motion too, but I wouldn't want to sail one. ;)

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/HeavyWeather.pdf

Our conclusion: the ‘hardware’ factors many people concern themselves with have little to do with survival – boat rig, keel configuration, size. While the psychological factors matter far more: appropriate tactics, trust in your vessel and spirited leadership.
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It boils down to taste at the end of the day, and an honest assessment of what kind of sailing you do - then buy the boat that makes the most sense both financially and from a practical point of view.

All this talk about which is best is just b*****ks, I can quite happily say that my boat is best for my budget and the sailing I do with my family in the area where I sail - doesn't mean it would suit anyone else though and if you like long keeled traditional designs then fine, most AWB owners would respect your choice, they certainly add character to harbours and anchorages.

So here's a very happy, sunbathing SWMBO on the foredeck reading her kindle, for which our boat is perfect IMHO ..... :D

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When I first saw my boat (a Twister) my thoughts were along the lines of "That's a fine seaworthy-looking yacht that I can afford to buy and maintain". So I bought it. That was 16 years ago. Since I haven't seen any other boat at that price that I would have preferred. That's not a recommendation, just my experience.

I don't know if the YBW Forum existed in 1997 (I didn't have a computer then anyway) but if it had I would have found this thread of no help at all in choosing a boat. One man says one thing, another says the opposite. And then you end up thinking "Who are these people anyway?" :D
 
parsifal said:
When I first saw my boat (a Twister) my thoughts were along the lines of "That's a fine seaworthy-looking yacht that I can afford to buy and maintain". So I bought it. That was 16 years ago. Since I haven't seen any other boat at that price that I would have preferred. That's not a recommendation, just my experience.

I don't know if the YBW Forum existed in 1997 (I didn't have a computer then anyway) but if it had I would have found this thread of no help at all in choosing a boat. One man says one thing, another says the opposite. And then you end up thinking "Who are these people anyway?" :D
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That's the point, buy what you like and get it surveyed by someone who knows what they're looking at if you're not confident.

All the boats mentioned so far on this thread can sail and you get used to their vices so go with affordability and personal preference - buy a boat you can love and live with - but nothing spoils the boating experience like financial hardship.

There's no point in seeking opinions in a place like this 'cos all you'll get are the conflicting views of loads of cantankerous old gits who are all right - all the time. :)
 
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