Connecting Full length Batten to track ! your thoughts please

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irl2605

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Hi All
I have fairly recently upgraded my Beneteau 260 s to a 25.7. The same boat but with a few slight differences.
One of the changes is the addition of two full length Battens to the top of the main sail. My problem is two fold ,We find raising and lowering the main can be difficult and the Plastic sliders attaching the Full Battens keep breaking and damaging the mast.. The boat is just going into its 3rd season and we are trying to resolve this issue. I have e mailed Rutgerson, Elvestrom and the Beneteau Dealer ,Who says he is unaware of any problem but will ask Beneteau and I am awaiting their responses.. Please see PicsIMG_3202.jpgIMG_2977.jpg
 
If the battens keep breaking i would suggest getting better ones
My battens can rolled into 1metre rings & could possibly be smaller rings if i tried
As for raising & lowering- i have similar ends & find i need to head right into the wind to raise & lower
Doing this & the main will just fall easily, any wind in it & i have absolutely no chance of getting it down
 
The legs of the plastic slug seem to beq uite short. Are they the correct type ? Are the top slugs being twisted unbroken out of the sail track or is the neck fracturing ?

If the slugs physically break (at the 'neck' ?) you need - as DDB says - stronger ones. Causes of the breaking might be that the battens are a few mm too long, forcing the car at an angle to the slug; or that the shackle is also too long and enabling the car to slide round the side of the slug and twist it.
 
That looks to me like an adjustable tension inner batten holder. The black plastic bit. I wonder if the batten tension is too great. It might also show too much tension as being difficult to get the main sail to flop inside out when tacking. You might find that less batten tension is all that is needed. You don't need to force a huge camber in the main with batten tension.

However thinking about it, the batten tension should be through the sail cloth itself anyway. You may have too much down tension on the main sail trying to shorten the roach so pressing battens into the mast. This would be exacerbated by not enough halyard tension. Ideally the luff tension should be such that the bolt rope is bar tight so no end tension on the plastic slug.
So yes the slug arrangement does look a bit flimsy and bigger boats will have a very substantial car to go up the mast with a robust hinge to allow sail to swing port to stbd. On the other hand my mainsial quite big but on a smaller boat has just the bolt rope in the mast (no slugs) and seems to cope with full length battens no problem.
So I guess really I don't know but may give you some ideas for thought olewill
PS I have some bronze slugs on my main for top of main or clew on boom. ie high tension areas These if you can find them might solve your problem.
 
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From the Owen ails website…

It is vital that the Fully Battened Mainsail is fitted with a good quality compression slide and car. This junction between the batten end and the mast must be supported by one of the following:

Sailman 3000, 4000 or 5000 system - www.bainbridgeint.com
Rutgerson compression slides - www.rutgerson.se
Frederiksen ballslide and batten car system - www.ronstan.com
Selden track and car system - www.seldenmast.com.com

All these systems take the load off the batten ends and the mast, allowing the sail to be dropped and hoisted smoothly. They all eliminate the friction problem due to the compression load at the inner end of the battens. If coupled with a Stackpack and Lazyjacks, the sail can be dropped cleanly, with no fuss or panic of the sail blowing off the boom.

Put another way, a simple plastic slider is not good enough, as you've found out. You need one form or another of a wheeled batten car with an articulated batten:car joint.
 
I'd have thought that for a 26 ft. boat [which I assume a B. 260 is] roller cars would be over the top. My Sadler 29 has SDA cars which are simple sliding ones but adjustable for batten compression [not batten tension please, it's the sail that's in tension] and they've worked well for 10 years now as long as I keep the mast groove clean.
 
I had a 25.7 with the same arrangement and it worked fine, I wonder if you have too much tension in the battens. Also if you haven't got the battens fully engaged in the slot in the fitting it will allowing the fitting to pivot to the side and that I guess is where the scratches are coming from.

You could fit a pair of pressure relief slides with wheels but that really should not be necessary.

Very surprised the dealer is not showing more interest, where are you moored?
 
irl2605 said:
Hi All
I have fairly recently upgraded my Beneteau 260 s to a 25.7. The same boat but with a few slight differences.
One of the changes is the addition of two full length Battens to the top of the main sail. My problem is two fold ,We find raising and lowering the main can be difficult and the Plastic sliders attaching the Full Battens keep breaking and damaging the mast.. The boat is just going into its 3rd season and we are trying to resolve this issue. I have e mailed Rutgerson, Elvestrom and the Beneteau Dealer ,Who says he is unaware of any problem but will ask Beneteau and I am awaiting their responses.. Please see PicsView attachment 38622View attachment 38621
Click to expand...


Sorry but that is a very poor quality set up & will never work correctly with the combination of slug & that shackle that is doing all that damage to the mast. Its very Heath Robinson.
A lashing between the shackle & slug might be better as it would reduce the play between the 2

This is what i have had these past 14 yrs. expensive yes, and faultless
IDP0416.gif


http://www.ronstan.co.uk/marine5/range.asp?RnID=326
 
IMHO you need some cars on the end of full length battens otherwise you get all sorts of problems. I managed to pick up a few Rutgerson cars on the for sale section earlier this year at a reasonable price, so keep your eyes peeled.
 
Being a small boat, I don't think a reallyexpensive system should be needed, but you need a slide that takes the compression force into the mast without the shackle touching the mast.
It might help a bit if the fit between the shackle and the slide was improved, so the black bit pushed on the white bit instead of the shackle. Maybe a piece of split tube around the slider's round bit?
Sailcloth.co.uk might help you find the full range of sliders and slugs?
 
We have a similar setup which works OK, but did at one point have a similar issue caused as follows.

Due to the failure of a circlip we lost one of the shackle type metal joiney bits between the batten holder and the slider, so we simply used a shackle, much like you have. The issue we encountered thereafter was that the batten holder would try to "trip" the slider (force the top edge against the mast and pull the bottom edge away) while hoisting the sail, making it difficult to hoist and causing the sliders to break.

As others have mentioned, talk to the batten-end manufacturer and get the correct sliders and coupling between the two.

Sorry for the terrible description of our issue, but it is the only way I could think of describing it.
 
If your mast-track gate is low enough, and out of the way so that the cars don't have to run past it, then switching to cars should overcome the problem. However, it does seem a bit over-the-top for this size of boat. I have a Parker 275 with fully-battened main - it uses two cylindrical-type track slugs, one above and one below the batten. This works well, and can be hoisted and dropped with no bother. I considered switching to cars for a new main, but the position of the track gate meant I would need a new mast to do it! I shall be continuing with the existing system [see pic attached]

IMG_2596.jpg
 
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I had my sails converted to full battens, I've just had new sails made with the same arrangement.
The problem I see from your pics is the metal shackle holding the batten pocket to the sail.
Mine uses tape to hold the D toggle, an alternative would be to use a length of cord to hold the batten pocket to the D toggle. You need something to allow the joint to twist when you drop the sail.
My sailmaker also advised not to over tension the battens in the pockets.
I am very happy with the arrangement (on main and mizzen)
 

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The basic problem, to put it very simply, is that the batten is under too much tension - the cure for now is to detension it, after that you can look up the fancy car catalogues if you like !
 
Ideally you need a slider that will take the batten compression directly on the aft face of the mast ,along with an articulated connection between the box that holds the batten ends.
Bainbridge do an Allslip slide for various masts.which is longer than a usual slide,this can be connect by webbing or a shackle connector.it has a bearing face which holds the slide firmly against the mast .
Another problem will be the shackle scraping the mast as it's not held firmly on the slide ,.removing the metal shackle and use a webbing strap sewn through the slide and eyelet,may cure the mast damage problem ,if the hole is to small,contact your sailmaker and ask for a Rutgertson articulated connector.
Basically two forks back to back with a swivel join.
Watch out for mis alignment of the the luff with various slide types,that can prevent the sail hoisting easily ,also a slide on the headboard and close below the board can make hoisting difficult unless they are compression slides..
Cindy
 
Thanks for all the great info people. Everyone seems to be hitting on the compression issue and having Comunicated with Eric in Rutgerson (The ONLY company to respond so far) It would seem that the reverse pressure is the issue.. I include a section of his very detailed reply. Some people here have mentioned Rutgarson already and I have to say I have been impressed with communications so far.

Extract.

if the mast profile is Z265, then you need our 11mm battcar but with large wheels, which would make me recommended below battcar assortment:
- top mainsail: either 1 x 1531-11-10 (low cost choice) or our headboard car A112 which would be stronger and look lot nicer, but it depends as well if you have a headboard on your mainsail top or how it is mounted,
- intermediates: our 1526-11
- battens battcars: 1531-11-03
With that assortment, you will for sure have a strong and efficient solution, sliding perfectly, so watch out when you will want to put down your mainsail as it would make a big difference with what you have now !
You can download our Sail Hardware catalogue, and have a look at these battcars, from: www.rutgerson.se.
Eric also gives a contact for their products in the UK Contender UK and I will be contacting them shortly to purchase a set of Battcars
:)
Once Again . Thank you for taking the time to comment
Fair Winds
 
wilkinsonsails said:
Ideally you need a slider that will take the batten compression directly on the aft face of the mast ,along with an articulated connection between the box that holds the batten ends.
Bainbridge do an Allslip slide for various masts.which is longer than a usual slide,this can be connect by webbing or a shackle connector.it has a bearing face which holds the slide firmly against the mast .
Another problem will be the shackle scraping the mast as it's not held firmly on the slide ,.removing the metal shackle and use a webbing strap sewn through the slide and eyelet,may cure the mast damage problem ,if the hole is to small,contact your sailmaker and ask for a Rutgertson articulated connector.
Basically two forks back to back with a swivel join.
Watch out for mis alignment of the the luff with various slide types,that can prevent the sail hoisting easily ,also a slide on the headboard and close below the board can make hoisting difficult unless they are compression slides..
Cindy
Click to expand...
. Thanks for this good info :)
 
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