Confused over mainsail material

As an aside, I wonder about the friendliness / ethics of asking hordes of sailmakers for a quote.
Doing a quote costs quite a bit of time and money. Getting 2 or 3 quotes is, in my view, sensible - more than that, unless there is a very unusual reason, is just timewasting and putting up prices for all of us. Just my view though.
 
sgreenway said:
After getting a few offers and looking at cloths etc I've got my shortlist of 5 sailmakers and different types of material:
Sailmakers:
Kemp
Jeckells
Sanders
Crusader
Arun

Materials:
DP HA;
Vektron/Vektran;
DP SF;
Challenge Marblehead
Is there equivalent material I've missed?
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Going through the same process. The sailmaker I am leaning towards works with Contender sailcloth. He proposes either Fibercon Pro or Fibercon Hybrid, which is a dacron/dyneema mix. Chances are I go for a Fibercon Hybrid genoa and Fibercon Pro mainsail, the reasoning being that the mainsail will suffer less, as it will be fully battened, so Fibercon Pro will do. Second point is that the Hybrid has to be used in a triradial cut, which I am told is not optimaal with full length battens. As the genoa will suffer more, Hybrid is better, being virtually bulletproof. It is also considerably more expensive.
 
rudolph_hart said:
I heartily endorse Crusader, based on experience.

Full length battens work especially well with lazyjacks & batten weight coupled with batten cars drop the mainsail like an ore's drores. If you go for Hydranet cloth (which contains Dyneema/Spectra fibres) it'll stretch less, so sails will last longer & you can also drop a cloth weight as well.
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+! Especially like Hydranet. Had Crusader triradial genoa and triradial fb main from it on our Sun Legende 41, did 20,000 plus miles and was good as new , even have it on our current in -mast main 'old man's sail'
 
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+1 for Crusader. They have made genoa and mainsail for me over the past couple of years and both fit and set really well and have been much admired by others.
 
sgreenway said:
Hi there,
Thought I'd ask those more knowledgeable than me as to what is the better mainsail cloth. I have had various offers to replace my mainsail and all seem to have different cloth, but the pricing is there or there abouts the same.

Jeckell - Performance Cruise (Marblehead)
Quay - Cross-cut Cruise Mainsail in Contender Supercruise Polyester or Cross-cut Premier Cruise Mainsail in Contender Fibercon Polyester
Sanders - Contender Fibrecon 7.38AP or Dimension Polyant 300SF Dacron
Arun - 7.520z Contender Fibercon Pro
Onesails - Standard Dacron or Best Dacron alternative

These are the only offers so far, so any advice gratefully received.

Steve
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They're all top-end Dacron under various trade names.
Quite OK for normal light cruising without bendy mast or roller reefing, in cross-cut build.

As I don't know the type of sailing in which you indulge it's not something on which I would be so rash as to advise.
However, instead of being confused by the plethora of names why not take the sailmaker into your confidence, and give him a budget.
Polyesters are the most UV stable of sail-fabrics, but the most likely to distort under load and, IMHO not particularly effective in crosscut form. As in all things you'll get what you pay for.
One thought - however much you save on fabric (and lose in effectiveness) the labour cost will be the same as for a more expensive, longer-lived and better shaped sail in more exotic fibre.
 
It is very difficult to get comparative quotes from sailmakers.
They use various names for the cloth they use, some are in-house names, some are manufacturers.
Also quotes vary as different sailmakers choose to use different weights of cloth and of course different cuts.

My advice here is to either research yourself exactly what you want up front and be very prescriptive in your request for quote.
Or track down a trusted guy who you can talk to who can help you nail down what material, weight and cut is right for you.

One thing tends to be true is you get what you pay for.
Want a cheap sail go with Jeckells.
Want a quality sail go with North.
The rest fall somewhere between.

One thing to remember is ask your boatyard to get a quote.
Your local yard may get a significant trade discount which they my pass on to you.
A caveat to that is the yard is likely to only have a deal with one or two sailmakers so again you need to do some homework up front.
 
Javelin said:
One thing tends to be true is you get what you pay for.
Want a cheap sail go with Jeckells.
Want a quality sail go with North.
The rest fall somewhere between.
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I agree, it is difficult to get comparative quotes. Most have been round about the same price.

However, I've not had any reply from:
North
Hood
Hyde

So no idea their pricing!
 
My experience with North is that they are very expensive and NOT any better than some of the others. North like to sell to big race boats with deep pockets. Their target market does not appear to be the average cruiser looking for a reasonable quality sail.

Even when I ran a small race boat and wanted the best sails they appeared not to be interested.

I strongly challenge the claim that they cut better sails than some of the other big lofts. (Or Pete Sanders.)
 
john_morris_uk said:
My experience with North is that they are very expensive and NOT any better than some of the others. North like to sell to big race boats with deep pockets. Their target market does not appear to be the average cruiser looking for a reasonable quality sail.

Even when I ran a small race boat and wanted the best sails they appeared not to be interested.

I strongly challenge the claim that they cut better sails than some of the other big lofts. (Or Pete Sanders.)
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+1 indeed. When I bought our sun Legende back in 2001 the North sails we inherited were garbage. The mainsail bolt rope luff tape was rotted and the rope cheapo blue polypropylene. The genoa seams were opening up under normal halyard tension load and daylight visible through them. We ditched them and bought our first Hydranet sail, a tri-radial roller genoa from Crusader, Poole. we had the north main patched to last a season, then that was replaced with a matching (also Tri-radial cut) fully battened main in Hydranet. CRuSader sails were designed cut and made iin the UK, their MD (Paul lees) visited the boat himself to measure up for best possible results and also came and helped me set the rig and new sails up for best performance. North at the time had their sails built in the far east, despite their huge prices so if anyone did any local measuring or service it was not the maker, just an agent of some kind. Maybe things are different now than back then, but I much prefer the local loft with all aspects in house and a reputation to maintain based on quality and service, not just because some smart super rich race boat won a well publicised race or two. I'm not rich enough for designer labels.

When we bought our USA sail boat and had to replace the in-mast main, I could not see beyond the sales hype from the US lofts, none of which were very interested anyway, so I called Crusader who made me a very nice sail, again using Hydranet and had it delivered to my home in Florida in just 4 weeks and much cheaper, even with shipping costs than any local offering of uncertain pedigree. I WAS charged $300 by the nearest sail loft here just to tell me original sail was stuffed but then they knew by then that they had no chance of a sale from a limey mug who could see through their bullshit.
 
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vyv_cox said:
Definitely a worthwhile option. My previous Dacron genoa was clapped out after three years. I replaced it and the mainsail in Hood Vectran (now called Vektron) in 2000, since when they have been heavily used, liveaboard for half the year. There is no detectable shape change, although the stitching has been redone twice on the genoa and once on the mainsail.
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Vektron - especially if you have in mast furling. Dacron just stretches too much, which might be ok for a conventional main, but very short sighted for Furling mains
 
Luckily for me I don't have a furling main!

So either have the same configuration as before - i.e. bolt rope fixed foot, or a loose foot main.

So many new things to think about, lol.

So much for a sail is a sail is a sail!
 
sgreenway said:
I agree, it is difficult to get comparative quotes. Most have been round about the same price.

However, I've not had any reply from:
North
Hood
Hyde

So no idea their pricing!
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Not really an excuse but I know that Hyde are genuinely busy as I gave them card details for the deposit on my new sail before the show & due to having to do so many quotes they still have not had time to take my money yet.
 
Firstly I have no affiliation with North or any other sailmaker anymore.
We supply on average 10 sets a year, (14 suits this year).
As the yard its us who gets it in the neck if things are not right.
So frankly its far more cost effective to pay a little more with no worries about the quality, fit, shape etc.

As we are usually doing other stuff to the boats we can usually offset the 10 or 15% additional cost by charging at trade prices
In previous years we've used Kemp, Hyde, Jeckells, No1, and North.
Early this year we carried out an extensive quotation exercise.
We had not previously used North apart from the odd one or two for specific owners who insisted, as has been said above we didn't think their core business was in cruising sails however I was persuaded to try them by a rep I knew from old and after the tendering process was over and taking trade discounts into account we ended up deciding to go with North this year.

!4 suits of cruising sails ranging from tan Fisher 25 to fully battened Oyster 435 cruising laminates.
All shipped on time, no fitting issues and on the four boats I delivered the sails were really very good.
The sails on Lady of Hamford have transformed her performance which has actually changed the mind of the owner who said he would not race to a point now where he's entering every race he can.
In fact I know the owner has ordered new s3 and a3 spinnakers.

I can't remember a year we've never had issues with sails, having to return them for various reasons.
So far this year there have been no issues at all.
 
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dunedin said:
As an aside, I wonder about the friendliness / ethics of asking hordes of sailmakers for a quote.
Doing a quote costs quite a bit of time and money. Getting 2 or 3 quotes is, in my view, sensible - more than that, unless there is a very unusual reason, is just timewasting and putting up prices for all of us. Just my view though.
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Understand the point you're making, but every sizeable sailmaker has all sails on computer and usually one can get onto their website and fill in your own details and get a quote.
Your point might be made about self-bewilderment by the requester.

Personally I go to a sailmaker whose expertise I trust, and take their advice.
IMHO for most recreational sailors, top-end Dacron will give them the greatest bang for their buck.
My current is a cross-cut, fully battened, Vektran main and 4 different size mitre-cut roller genoas and a non-furling solent. Not including downwind sails such as spinnakers and gennikers.
 
Javelin said:
Firstly I have no affiliation with North or any other sailmaker anymore.
We supply on average 10 sets a year, (14 suits this year).
As the yard its us who gets it in the neck if things are not right.
So frankly its far more cost effective to pay a little more with no worries about the quality, fit, shape etc.

As we are usually doing other stuff to the boats we can usually offset the 10 or 15% additional cost by charging at trade prices
In previous years we've used Kemp, Hyde, Jeckells, No1, and North.
Early this year we carried out an extensive quotation exercise.
We had not previously used North apart from the odd one or two for specific owners who insisted, as has been said above we didn't think their core business was in cruising sails however I was persuaded to try them by a rep I knew from old and after the tendering process was over and taking trade discounts into account we ended up deciding to go with North this year.

!4 suits of cruising sails ranging from tan Fisher 25 to fully battened Oyster 435 cruising laminates.
All shipped on time, no fitting issues and on the four boats I delivered the sails were really very good.
The sails on Lady of Hamford have transformed her performance which has actually changed the mind of the owner who said he would not race to a point now where he's entering every race he can.
In fact I know the owner has ordered new s3 and a3 spinnakers.

I can't remember a year we've never had issues with sails, having to return them for various reasons.
So far this year there have been no issues at all.
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What about that supports your specific assertion (post #26) that North make better sails than, e.g. Crusader, Sanders. Lofts you do not seem to have done any business with?

We get it, you like North Sails, great, and it is always important to put a strong recommendation out there when you've clearly had excellent service from them. I've never had a sail from them (and don't think I've sailed boats with) so for that reason wouldn't be able to comment on where their loft falls in the quality spectrum. But your post doesn't mention any contact with products you say are inferior to North. How did you establish your opinion?
 
Another vote for vektron , my main now two years old , fantastic , fully battened too , cost same as good quality dacron yet should hold its shape for at least a decade., sets like a race laminate cant recommend it enough.
Oh and lighter than equivalent dacron so makes handling easier
 
bitbaltic said:
What about that supports your specific assertion (post #26) that North make better sails than, e.g. Crusader, Sanders. Lofts you do not seem to have done any business with?

We get it, you like North Sails, great, and it is always important to put a strong recommendation out there when you've clearly had excellent service from them. I've never had a sail from them (and don't think I've sailed boats with) so for that reason wouldn't be able to comment on where their loft falls in the quality spectrum. But your post doesn't mention any contact with products you say are inferior to North. How did you establish your opinion?
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I think he's been very clear and open, listing those he has used, and recounting how recently, having used North, he's had great success, and he's taken the time to share, in detail, the background to his conclusions.

On the other hand your contribution, your last post aside, amounts to "+1".


I'm no fan of North, but his post does make a good point, and it is your post that says the others are inferior - Javelin makes no assertion.
 
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Read all the above in the hope that it would help me choose!!
A bit confusing but I have a good quote from Crusader sails for my mainsail in Contender Supercruise. I am tempted to just go for that but welcome comments.

It was interesting that their offered sizes which I believe came from the original spec were 2 feet higher on the luff and 12 inches longer on the foot than what I measured on the sail.
I have queried this as I don't want a sail that is too big! perhaps when I measured the sail ( on the ground) it was short because of lack of tension but does a sail stretch so much in use?
and is the size they quote what the sail would be under tension or the 'relaxed size'?
 
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