Conflicting advice from sailmakers - help

lol, surely that reinforces WHAT I say,, if they are paying, hell, no worries, charge them MORE....


one size fits all is NOT a substitute for knowing HOW to sail, unless, they are paying guests, or, you make money out of them somehow lol... seems we are on the same wavelength dood.\\


Joe
 
Hey Joe if you like my Floyd quote your OK!

I can only speak for myself and to start with, I'm no blue water sailor, south coast, channel, France, CI's, Ireland one day, nothing I believe that would warrant a storm sail. I used to have one on my other boat but never used it. For me it is watch the weather, if I am likely to need a storm sail, stay put, if the weather is changing get to cover.

Roller reefing/roller furling, interesting, I wont argue the terminology. You don't have to look to hard in the yachting press to read of a boat test where they talk of "putting a few rolls in the genoa as the wind builds". If you want to call that furling OK with me, its still reducing sail. But I know the sail shape will never be ideal, its a compromise isn't it?

Performance. mmm, You have lost me a bit on this, are you saying not to bother with better quality sail cloth, I'm not sure what you are saying?
Many people may well be happy with the sails on my boat, I know they need replacing. The boat was supplied with good quality sails, B&M from Denmark, radial cut 140% genny cross cut FB main. If I said to the sailmaker just make me a set of sails, keep the price down, yes cheapo dacron will be OK, I would be fitting out the boat with sails less than the ones I have. They may be OK for a year or so, but they are most likely similar to the cheap stretchy things fitted 'as supplied' on lots of boats.

I don't race, but I hate being overtaken, I like passing other boats and I like to keep my passage times as short as possible, No! that's not right, I like to make fast passages!
 
Way ta go dood. form memory...

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No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun...
and you run and you run to catch up with the sun but its sinking, chasing around to come up behind you again..
the sun is the same in a relative way buts its older, shorter of breath, and one day, closer to death

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Look, I am a very simple person, with simple nedds lol... a sail is a sail.. as siad before, my criteria is thus....

if it gives me a speed between 5.5 and 6.5, the boat isnt heeling excessively, then its kel for me..

I admit to knowing NAFF about cross cut, radial cut, etc... I dont really think I need to..

Anyways, gonna put me some Dylan on, Desire,,, then maybe a bit of Relics... cos I'm getting on lol


Joe, nice hooking up dood..
 
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I have sailed with boat owners who regard leaving the cockpit when the sails are up as something akin to crossing a motorway on a skateboard. The idea of replacing their one size fits all roller blind at the front of the boat with a sail actually meant for the wind strength is tantamount to suggesting taking a stroll through a bear infested wood covered in honey.


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That is indeed true, but then I suspect your are considering the achievement of optimum speed/VMG in racing terms when there is no doubt that at both ends of the windscale, made to measure individual sails are best.

However, as one who defintely hates going slowly I do take amore pragmatic view when reefing is required. As regular readers will know, we have a fully battened tri-radial cut mainsail with 3 slab reefs rigged all handled via a 2-line system from the cockpit, there is a flattener reef as well and the only one to get handled at the mast. We also have a tri-radial foam luffed roller genoa, obviously also controlled from the cockpit. Both mainsail and genoa are in Dimension Polyant Hydranet Spectra reinforced woven Dacon. The boat is a very powerful and fast 41ft cruiser/racer of 1988 vintage. We sail around 2,000mls pa with just a crew of myself and SWMBO, both of us card carrying bus pass holders.

Do we have an inner forestay? Yes of course, rigged when required.
Do we have running backstays to back up the inner forestay? Yes of course.
Do we have a storm jib? Yes of course.
Do we have a staysail? Yes of course.
Do we have dedicated track/fairleads/sheets for storm jib? Yes of course.
Do we have a dedicated fitted mast track for a trysail? Yes of course.

Do we use the above if/when caught in heavy weather? No way!

The only way we would consider rigging the inner forestay and setting up the storm jib/staysail would be in harbour if we were thinking of going to sea. Lateral thinking however says if you don't go to sea in those conditions you don't need the storm set up so why not wait a while.

Have we sailed in heavy weather? Yes of course, several boats several full gales and one force 9. Can we sail upwind in a gale? Yes no problem - for the boat (or our last 2 boats) only for us, we don't do it for fun anymore like we did when we were younger and prettier but less wise.

What sails did we use in gales? Current boat both reefed roller genoa and triple reefed main. Last boat, reefed roller genoa and mizzen, no main or treble reefed main. Boat before that had separate headsails, no roller and we had a heavy weather blade jib and triple reefed main up. Did the roller genoas work OK upwind in heavy weather? Yes thanks. Could we point as high as we might have with the storm jib set? Maybe not but then we were having to sail free anyway because of the seastate so was there really any significant difference?

So properly considered answers require all of the relevant factors to be taken into account. If we had a full race crew on board (probably 8 or more on our boat?) then I (well they not me) might well set up inner forestay with runners and staysail or storm jib. With SWMBO and me on our own as always the roller blind up front and the slab blind behind do sterling service and we don't have a cabin full of girt great wet sails.

No criticisms here of other's views, just comments as applied to us, our circumstances and the reality versus the theory. We are not marina caravan dwellers though sometimes chose to spend a weekend on our berth and we have been at it for a long time, sailing as well. Not that it matters to some of the Captain Birdseyes around.
 
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We are not marina caravan dwellers though sometimes chose to spend a weekend on our berth and we have been at it for a long time, sailing as well

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I am fascinated... WHAT have you been "AT IT FOR A LONG TIME" lol.... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

repeating, but, .... sails for the purpose... you dont "reef" a genny to a storm jib.. you CANT, plain n simple.

as for rigging the inner in harebour only ??? are you serious ? and WHY ?
It taakes seconds to rig, you dont have to fly the stay or storm jib at the time.. how do you think cutters go on with gennys?... they roll on the tack.. not difficult. please dont make excuses for marginal tactics and laziness.

Joe.
 
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repeating, but, .... sails for the purpose... you dont "reef" a genny to a storm jib.. you CANT, plain n simple.


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RTFP. I DID therefore I CAN. Plain and simple!

Like I said before, not as perfect as the storm jib so we cannot point as high but then seastate stopped us doing that anyway. Besides which with our current boat we start from a pointing angle that you wouldn't have seen on your boat even in your wildest dreams so we do have a bit to give away and still go well.

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as for rigging the inner in harebour only ??? are you serious ? and WHY ?
It taakes seconds to rig, you dont have to fly the stay or storm jib at the time.. how do you think cutters go on with gennys?... they roll on the tack.. not difficult. please dont make excuses for marginal tactics and laziness.

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It takes seconds in harbour to set up a temporary forestay, it takes more than the book tells you in practice at sea when the boat is bucking around and you have a 50ft wire snake trying to escape your clutch whilst trying to fit its attachment to the deck fitting, life is less simple then. The cutter stay for us is an extra not an essential on our boat and if left permanently rigged it would slow tacking and prevent us from carrying the inflated Zodiac on deck. If I felt it was needed I would set it but then so far I haven't and it wasn't and I didn't.

If you would try some DECENT sails with a decent cut rather than the simple bulletproof tatt you have been advising others on, you might see things differently, even on your motorsailer /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Robin
 
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If you would try some DECENT sails with a decent cut rather than the simple bulletproof tatt you have been advising others on, you might see things differently, even on your motorsailer

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Sorry but /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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so, if you NEEDED the inner forestay, you would throw the zodiac over the side huh ???? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

and nope, you didnt make your genny a storm jib.. you cant.. you made it a lump of cloth on the forestay, nothing more..

now, if you want to "test" your theories... well, we could have sort of wager.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I will offer you a small race if you like, say, 300 miles.. you pick a 34 footer with the sails you want, I will pick the course and the time, max 2 on board... then we see who gets in soon ? deal ?
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

most times, its not the gun, its the gunner... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I agree with both of you!

As I see it, not having the correct sail up, or decently trimmed is tantamount to a crime against your boat. A good analogy would be owning an Austin Martin and never putting your foot down. And I'm not talking about the light wind sails, I can understand and sympathise with cruising sailors who do not have specialist light wind sails, they're expensive and will see little use when the engine is a viable alternative.

Anyone who has sailed a race boat with a good set of carbon or Kevlar sails will have realised the massive difference in performance that these sails have provided.
The first time I sailed a boat with a good set of cruising laminates I was delighted to realise that the most important improvement in the sails, the ability to flatten the sail and control the shape to perfection was still there. Sure they're heavier than racing sails, but they're also a lot more durable!
 
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so, if you NEEDED the inner forestay, you would throw the zodiac over the side huh ????


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No, not at all. If we expect heavy weather (and that means F7 upwards) the Zodiac would either be put away if there was ANY possibility of needing the inner forestay. We can actually just manage it with it in place but the staysail chafes on it. If we were going downwind in heavy weather I wouldn't worry about Zodiac or inner stay. If our trip was upwind we would not deliberately leave in F7+ these days, no need, no point to prove because we already have a full tee shirt collection. If caught out (going upwind) then we already know we can use our well rolled triradial genoa and triple reefed main so why would I want to go on deck and fight to fit the inner stay, storm jib or staysail, let alone the trysail, getting cold and wet in the process? I would leave that to others because in OUR case on OUR boat it isn't necessary unless it was a survival storm situation and in over 40 years so far I've avoided those. Going downwind we can and have carried a lot of sail at speeds you can only dream of, or we can go very nicely ta with a part rolled genoa and no main so again no need for the ultimate storm stuff, even though we have it.
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now, if you want to "test" your theories... well, we could have sort of wager.... I will offer you a small race if you like, say, 300 miles.. you pick a 34 footer with the sails you want, I will pick the course and the time, max 2 on board... then we see who gets in soon ? deal ?

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Once again RTFP! I have no theories to test, I am simply telling you what we have DONE, it is FACT not fiction.

Why on earth would I want to race you, I don't have anything to prove at all unlike you it seems who cannot accept any view that differs from your own (or the textbooks).

I will say once more, on our boat we go upwind at around 7kts and at 28 degs apparent wind optimum angle (or 22 degs apparent and 6kts). If we roll the genoa hard down then we free off to around 35 degs apparent and speed still around 7kts unless we deliberately slow more for comfort. I would doubt your motorsailer can manage even 35 degs apparent in a flat calm without the use of your engine let alone in any kind of sea so yes I agree in your case a rolled genoa to your spec would probably be a dismal failure trying to make to windward. But the biggest BUT is WTF go upwind in that if you don't need to? Are you planning a circumnavigation against the prevailing winds/currents?

Just once why don't you allow that there are sometimes other viewpoints just as valid as yours?
 
Ok, this got a little out of hand at the end, but interesting views, thanks. I take the point that a furling genoa will always be a compromise, but so is every yacht to some extent. I just want to make the compromise lean my way.

The Beneteau 311 can only take a 119% overlap, so furling/reefing/reducing it's size does not lose as much shape as a 150%.

Interestingly the conflicting local sailmakers were the two mentioned in the posts J and D! I guess that I will go back to them and ask again!

BTW, lovely and quiet on the rivers this week, had the Stour to myself!
 
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