Condor ferry & Fog!

[Mark-1]

I do not believe for one minute that it would have ignored peoplein the water had it known they were there.

+1

It's clear from the bridge recording transcribed in the MAIB report that the Pride of Bilbao thought the boat they encountered was ok.

We don't even know for sure if the boat they saw was the Ouzo, although it seems likely. Even if the boat the Pride of Bilbao saw was the Ouzo we still don't know that the Pride of Bilbao caused the loss. I've been on the Pride of Bilbao. If they stopped to investigate every time a small vessel got close to them they'd never have got anywhere.

 

[BrianH]

Having been close to being run down twice by fast catamaran ferries in the Adriatic where there seems to be more than a fair share of cowboy captains, this story makes me twitch. I have read of a number of fatalities from New Zealand to New England, where these high-speed vessels cause fatalities to small boat crews due to fast closing speeds and the difficulty of a smaller, slower one to evade.

In my own case both times were in good visibility but they still kept coming straight at me - to think that such a high-speed vessel could maintain such a speed in fog seems to me to be reckless in the extreme.

Incidentally, the second time, with only one nm distance between us and a closing speed of 38 knots, my nerve broke and I called on channel 16 with the name supplied by my AIS receiver. Immediately the ferry changed course, although didn't respond on the VHF.

Both occasions were well out to sea so no navigational hazards to dictate the course. It reinforced my appreciation of the CPA and static data supplied by AIS.

 

[Cruiser2B]

I know they should have been doing these things - but in practice I doubt they would have made much difference. By the time a lookout saw the thing roaring out of the murk at 30 knots, it's too late to get out of the way. And on the ferry, snug inside and above such huge noisy engines, who's going to hear the (handheld aerosol?) horn of a 30' fishing boat?

Pete

"Lookout" implies more than the Mk 1 eyeball - there's radar, radio, AIS, listening and having an awareness of traffic patterns that all play in maintaining a lookout. In thick fog, it would have been good seamanship practice for Condor to have a fog lookout posted in the "eyes of the ship" as far forward as practical. A 30' commercial boat that operates in an area that is frequently foggy should be equipped with proper sound signalling equipment, but if there was a lookout forward, he should have been able to hear a handheld aerosol device in sufficient time.

 

[Greenheart]

At over thirty knots, the Condor's closing speed would require one of the fishermen to be hooting several times every minute, to be sure of being heard. And in a fog, who's to say exactly from where the sound may be coming?

Is anybody amongst us, of the view that this fisherman still would have died if the Condor had been making TEN knots?

 

[Cruiser2B]

Range of fog signal - roughly 2 NM. Time for vessel at 40 knots to cover 2 NM - 3 minutes. Interval of fog signal - not more than 2 minutes; if they were aware of a vessel in vicinity (by radar or hearing Condor's fog signal) they should have shortened the interval of their own signal.

The ferry displaces 5000 tonnes - at ten knots it would turn a 30 foot wooden vessel into matchsticks.

 

[prv]

In thick fog, it would have been good seamanship practice for Condor to have a fog lookout posted in the "eyes of the ship" as far forward as practical.

It appears from this picture that there is no accessible position forward of the bridge. No doubt they can get to the windlass for maintenance, but with no railing around it I presume their rules don't permit anyone to go there under way.

Note that the bridge, including the wings, appears to be fully enclosed. The only open deck is near the stern.

if there was a lookout forward, he should have been able to hear a handheld aerosol device in sufficient time.

Have you heard one of these ferries?

Pete

 

[Greenheart]

I didn't mean would the damage have been less; I was presuming that travelling at so responsible a speed as ten knots, the collision could have been avoided altogether. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

 

[Searush]

I didn't mean would the damage have been less; I was presuming that travelling at so responsible a speed as ten knots, the collision could have been avoided altogether. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

It was.

It might also have given the fishing boat helmsman half a chance of turning out of its path too, but not necessarily. I would be uncomfortable as a passenger on the Condor Ferry in fog, but it was quite an exciting experience in good vis.

 

[Adonnante]

It appears from this picture that there is no accessible position forward of the bridge. No doubt they can get to the windlass for maintenance, but with no railing around it I presume their rules don't permit anyone to go there under way.

It is interesting that it appears that the enclosed bridge is high and appears about 25m behind the bow. The slope of the forward deck would also limit forward vision, my guess and its no more than that, is that in less than 80m visibility it would be impossible to see anything on the sea.

Peter.

 

[Cruiser2B]

I didn't mean would the damage have been less; I was presuming that travelling at so responsible a speed as ten knots, the collision could have been avoided altogether. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

If they came into view at 30m, they would close that distance in 2 seconds at 30 kts or 6 seconds at 10 kts - you think the extra 4 seconds would make that much of a difference?

 

[Cruiser2B]

It appears from this picture that there is no accessible position forward of the bridge.

Between the forward staff and the anchor, it appears there is a hatch with a lookout standing in it.

Have you heard one of these ferries?

As a matter of fact, I have. I've also stood in the eyes of noisy turbine-powered warships and can tell you, it is surprisingly quiet.

 

[Mark-1]

It appears from this picture that there is no accessible position forward of the bridge. No doubt they can get to the windlass for maintenance, but with no railing around it I presume their rules don't permit anyone to go there under way.
It is interesting that it appears that the enclosed bridge is high and appears about 25m behind the bow. The slope of the forward deck would also limit forward vision, my guess and its no more than that, is that in less than 80m visibility it would be impossible to see anything on the sea.
Peter.

Don't they have cameras for the blind spot?

 

[Ubergeekian]

It might also have given the fishing boat helmsman half a chance of turning out of its path too, but not necessarily. I would be uncomfortable as a passenger on the Condor Ferry in fog, but it was quite an exciting experience in good vis.

The high speed thingies from Stranraer to Belfast are great fun to ride on. However, there have been one fatal accident and a swamping on Loch Ryan which have been attributed to fast ferry washes.

 

[Searush]

If they came into view at 30m, they would close that distance in 2 seconds at 30 kts or 6 seconds at 10 kts - you think the extra 4 seconds would make that much of a difference?

So you don't think they were using any radar at all then? Or are you suggesting that the 30' wooden boat would not show up on radar, much as I asked initially - and was promptly sneered at for? Don't forget the position of the bridge, anything at 30m away at sea level simply isn't visible anyway.

In my (admittedly amateur) view, 10 kts allows time to identify even a less distinct target on radar & allows one to slow down further or change course slightly to reduce the risk of collision.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

This should depend on whether the investigation(s) determine that a proper lookout was kept on Les Marquises and they were sounding fog signals. I'm curious too, if the assembled masses think it prudent to be fishing on the path of a scheduled ferry in a thick fog. Even if it's not marked on the charts, one would think local fishermen would not only be aware that a big high-speed ferry tears through that area, but they should know its route and schedule by heart. Frankly if Les Marquises wasn't doing their part in avoiding collision the outcome would have been the same whether Condor was at 10 knots or 40 knots.

Agree with you, Cruiser2B. The tone of this thread is very much one of pointing fingers at the Condor fery and its crew but until the investigation determines the actions of both crews prior to the accident, it's impossible to say for sure who is to blame, if anyone. Certainly the crew of the Les Marquises also had a responsibility under the Col Regs to keep a lookout by all available means in order to avoid a risk of a collision. I dont know whether Les Marquises had a radar (I'd be surprised if it didn't) but certainly something the size of a Condor ferry would have lit up even a basic radar at several miles range. As you say, being experienced seamen who should have been aware that they were near a fast ferry route, a large fast moving target on their radar should have alerted them to the presence of the Condor ferry and the risk of collision with it, in which case the Les Marquises also had a responsibility to avoid a collision. Also, anyone who has ever operated a radar knows that sometimes small craft do not show up well or at all on radar and again, being experienced seamen, the crew of the Les Marquises should have known that and asked themselves whether it was seamanlike to place themselves on the known route of a fast ferry in poor viz. Yes there are serious questions to be asked about the conduct of the crew of the Condor and, in particular, the speed at which they were navigating but it should be remembered that both vessels had a duty to avoid a collision, not just one

 

[Searush]

The high speed thingies from Stranraer to Belfast are great fun to ride on. However, there have been one fatal accident and a swamping on Loch Ryan which have been attributed to fast ferry washes.

Yes, I nearly got thrown off the deck of SR by the wash of teh Holyhead-Dublin fast cat. She passed the harbour entrance 20 mins earlier & I thoght no more of it. The wash arrived a 3-4 short steep waves that caught us side on (on a mooring) and rolled us gunwhale to gunwhale. Fortunately, on the deck I saw it before it hit & hung on as well as yelling a warning to swmbo below. It took while to tidy up the cabin after.

 

[Cruiser2B]

So you don't think they were using any radar at all then?

I don't know where you get that assumption from? If they weren't seen on radar at 30 kts, there is no reason they would be seen on radar at 10 kts. The point I was making was that assuming they didn't paint on radar for whatever reason (wood boat, poor tuning, poor atmospherics) and weren't making sound signals, that they relying entirely on being seen and in that case it would not have mattered whether Condor was going ten knots or forty.

 

[Beelzebub]

There appears to be an assumption on this board that the fishing vessel was of wooden construction whereas the French reports refer to it as being an aluminium vessel:-

http://www.tendanceouest.com/collis...ses-les-langues-se-delient,1458.media?a=11288

 

[Mark-1]

There appears to be an assumption on this board that the fishing vessel was of wooden construction whereas the French reports refer to it as being an aluminium vessel:-

http://www.tendanceouest.com/collis...ses-les-langues-se-delient,1458.media?a=11288

 

[Talulah]

Out of curiosity, as a ‘What Now Skip?’what would you have done in this situation?
Imagine you are on your own boat with the gear that is particular to your boat. You are caught out in fog unexpectedly and you hear the sound of the Condor ferry some distance off but know it’s heading your way.