fireball
Well-Known Member
If there was a compulsory driving test introduced for boats .... would you sail any differently than you do now?
Compulsory testing
- Thread starter fireball
- Start date
nct1
Well-Known Member
No, but I would do if I'd never had any form of instruction.
fireball
Well-Known Member
How do you work that out?
Any test is going to ensure you know the basic rules of the road, where to check for 'danger' and possibly how to drop your anchor. Is it really going to 'improve' the boy racers of the sea? You'll still get your old grandads pottering along whilst the buoy wonders fly about seeing how much noise and wash they can generate - just the same as you get on the road ....
Any test is going to ensure you know the basic rules of the road, where to check for 'danger' and possibly how to drop your anchor. Is it really going to 'improve' the boy racers of the sea? You'll still get your old grandads pottering along whilst the buoy wonders fly about seeing how much noise and wash they can generate - just the same as you get on the road ....
jac
Well-Known Member
I think you're polling the wrong people to be honest.
I would expect that most "anto social boating" comes from the casual speed boat owner - i.e. finds something on ebay for teh cost of a second hand car and goes tearing through moorings at 20 knots not knowing any better.
Those that are interested in more will probably read forums, mags etc.
Those that will prob buy yachts - hence read scuttlebutt - probaby will know a little at least.
I would expect that most "anto social boating" comes from the casual speed boat owner - i.e. finds something on ebay for teh cost of a second hand car and goes tearing through moorings at 20 knots not knowing any better.
Those that are interested in more will probably read forums, mags etc.
Those that will prob buy yachts - hence read scuttlebutt - probaby will know a little at least.
nct1
Well-Known Member
The point that the pro licence brigade is making, is that there are clearly a sizeable minority that have not had any or sufficient training to reach the level you mention.
Because there is no license, anyone and I mean anyone can jump into something of any horsepower and blast around not having the faintest idea of the danger they put them selves into and more importantly the risks to others. In these cases learning by your mistakes is an expensive process.
Sure there will be a section, like with car driving, who don't give a hoot about anyone else, but this section are coming to realise that serial offending means a loss of licence, which in many cases is the only tool to behaviour modification.
So I can see a link between a licence that is gained through demonstration of the basic skills, and the loss of licence vs serial bad behaviour curtailment.
I am not suggesting that basic instruction is the end of the story, I am still learning, and know that experience has made be a better sailor, but based on a solid foundation.
However the nay sayers do have 2 good points
1. The (current) low level of fatalities
2. The cost of traditional policing
Once the former rises to an unacceptable level, we will see the introduction of trackers which will make policing easier.
As others have pointed out, long term licencing is inevitable, the only question is how do we ensure it is not made into a costly red tape nightmare.
Remember this is just my opinion, it is a forum and the beauty of it, is the wide spectrum of views, that on occasion provide a different perspective to problems.
Because there is no license, anyone and I mean anyone can jump into something of any horsepower and blast around not having the faintest idea of the danger they put them selves into and more importantly the risks to others. In these cases learning by your mistakes is an expensive process.
Sure there will be a section, like with car driving, who don't give a hoot about anyone else, but this section are coming to realise that serial offending means a loss of licence, which in many cases is the only tool to behaviour modification.
So I can see a link between a licence that is gained through demonstration of the basic skills, and the loss of licence vs serial bad behaviour curtailment.
I am not suggesting that basic instruction is the end of the story, I am still learning, and know that experience has made be a better sailor, but based on a solid foundation.
However the nay sayers do have 2 good points
1. The (current) low level of fatalities
2. The cost of traditional policing
Once the former rises to an unacceptable level, we will see the introduction of trackers which will make policing easier.
As others have pointed out, long term licencing is inevitable, the only question is how do we ensure it is not made into a costly red tape nightmare.
Remember this is just my opinion, it is a forum and the beauty of it, is the wide spectrum of views, that on occasion provide a different perspective to problems.
TheBoatman
Well-Known Member
<<<<As others have pointed out, long term licencing is inevitable, the only question is how do we ensure it is not made into a costly red tape nightmare.>>>>>
I would agree with you but I'm afraid that the "costly" bit is already here. When, (I say when) compulsory licencing comes in HMG will look at what is already in place for those of us that have existing professional licences and take it from there!!! Compulsory medical checks, sea miles, vessels "served" in, statements from "employer's, fire fighting courses, first aid courses, sea survival courses etc, all of which have to be paid for?
Whilst the RYA may be against licencing I'll bet they won't struggle too much against it because they will only see a new revenue stream as would the MCA.
What would be interesting is to see how they divide up the various catagories of licence, i.e. sail only ~ is that dinghy or something bigger, powerboats etc, etc.
Peter.
TheBoatman.
I would agree with you but I'm afraid that the "costly" bit is already here. When, (I say when) compulsory licencing comes in HMG will look at what is already in place for those of us that have existing professional licences and take it from there!!! Compulsory medical checks, sea miles, vessels "served" in, statements from "employer's, fire fighting courses, first aid courses, sea survival courses etc, all of which have to be paid for?
Whilst the RYA may be against licencing I'll bet they won't struggle too much against it because they will only see a new revenue stream as would the MCA.
What would be interesting is to see how they divide up the various catagories of licence, i.e. sail only ~ is that dinghy or something bigger, powerboats etc, etc.
Peter.
TheBoatman.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
fireball
Well-Known Member
Well - you're never going to get a correct answer from that question - as everyone will believe themselves to be safe drivers/helms/skippers/captains - and by the very nature of the question it assumes to be testing/teaching on safety.
With the vast majority of boaters being sensible enough I cannot see a valid safety reason to implement compulsory testing. Even with testing there will be a rouge element just the same as we get in cars ...
With the vast majority of boaters being sensible enough I cannot see a valid safety reason to implement compulsory testing. Even with testing there will be a rouge element just the same as we get in cars ...
nct1
Well-Known Member
Tell me, are we finding wholesale scrapping of health and safety laws at the moment, or are new ones being drafted up every day ?
Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, so please help me with some good reliable sources to support this view.
Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, so please help me with some good reliable sources to support this view.
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
You would certainly create more jobs, the new qualification would need to be policed, otherwise it would be pointless.
Police on the water and shore, boats and RIBS (and jetskis?) senior officers, buildings, managers, bean counters, regional directors, directors, CEO, government dept, government profit, etc etc etc
Shouldn't cost that much to implement. Say £250 per boat per year, whats the fuss?
Police on the water and shore, boats and RIBS (and jetskis?) senior officers, buildings, managers, bean counters, regional directors, directors, CEO, government dept, government profit, etc etc etc
Shouldn't cost that much to implement. Say £250 per boat per year, whats the fuss?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Irrelevant!
There is no evidence that there is any proposal for licencing or testing of yachtsmen. The normal signs that something is afoot is Accident report recommendations, Coroners court findings (both a feature of the Marchioness case which led to the drink law), campaigning politicians seeking votes and so on. I see nothing of these in relation to this subject.
Hence my question of those who talk about "inevitable". Why?
There is no pressure from EU or international law - ICC dealt with that. No mention in any political party manifesto. No recommendation from MCA or MAIB. No pressure from RNLI.
So where do these doom laden ideas come from?
nct1
Well-Known Member
Totally relevant I'm afraid.
Let me answer the question you are not prepared to respond to. Think back 15 years and consider the things you could still do without licenses, risk assessments, certificates, packs, inspections and electronic checks.
The Telegraph pointed out that since 1997 there have been on average 320 new criminal offences created per year.
For example, I am willing to bet that the offence of "Disturbing a pack of eggs when instructed not to by authorised officers" was not in any manifesto, enquiry findings or voluntary aid organisation's "to do list".
The tide of ever increasing legislation is clearly evident, but you are chosing to ignore it.
Let me answer the question you are not prepared to respond to. Think back 15 years and consider the things you could still do without licenses, risk assessments, certificates, packs, inspections and electronic checks.
The Telegraph pointed out that since 1997 there have been on average 320 new criminal offences created per year.
For example, I am willing to bet that the offence of "Disturbing a pack of eggs when instructed not to by authorised officers" was not in any manifesto, enquiry findings or voluntary aid organisation's "to do list".
The tide of ever increasing legislation is clearly evident, but you are chosing to ignore it.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I know all aboout that.
What you are failing to respond to is my specific request for any reliable evidence that there is any proposal for compulsory testing for yachtsmen.
All the things you mention are preceded by accidents, court cases, political pressures and so on. As a Telegraph reader you will read them daily - yesterday for example one in six NHS diagnosis wrong. Pictures of babies in hospital having contracted E coli etc etc.
There is a sound and logical basis for much, but not all "safety" related legislation. It comes from dealing with clear issues picked up by campaigning organisations, politicians and civil servants.
I see none of this related to our issue - unless I have missed it!
What you are failing to respond to is my specific request for any reliable evidence that there is any proposal for compulsory testing for yachtsmen.
All the things you mention are preceded by accidents, court cases, political pressures and so on. As a Telegraph reader you will read them daily - yesterday for example one in six NHS diagnosis wrong. Pictures of babies in hospital having contracted E coli etc etc.
There is a sound and logical basis for much, but not all "safety" related legislation. It comes from dealing with clear issues picked up by campaigning organisations, politicians and civil servants.
I see none of this related to our issue - unless I have missed it!
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately the argument founders there because the determined hooligan carries on driving whilst banned and uninsured. There is also a very, very low awareness of what rules and regulations apply to boating. If Joe Public buys a jet ski from an ad in the Autotrader and the vendor tells him there are no rules or costs. He believes him. He must be right, he's had a jetski.
There is no chance of policing boating in the same way as motoring is as there are far less opportunities to make it financially viable. So the usual rip-off will happen. Those who want to abide by the rules will pay the generous licence fees and those who don't care, won't.
nct1
Well-Known Member
Tranona I gave you a clear example where the channels to legislation you are expecting were not used to get legislation in.
As others have pointed out, had Kirsty Mccoll been Kirsty Brown the results would be different.
Once the casualty rate in our passtime is deemed to be unacceptable, the legislation will come in.
You may feel safe that the RYA or RNLI are not lobbying for this (but why should they, it would make them unpopular with their financial contributers), but all we are waiting for is the incident that will happen to a politicians familiy member, or an event that the papers pick up on that shows that any fool can jump into a vessle with considerable power and/or weight with no training, and kill some innocent person (or people), it's an easy story really.
Do you think before the Marchioness disaster there was lobbying for more commercial sailing rules, or was it a catalyst that the papers got hold of because a lot of young people died ?
People new to boating or this forum raise the license / training issue quite often, it's an outsiders perspective, you can ignore it if you like, but it is going to happen regardless of whether it happens to be on your particular radar because you have no control over the trigger event.
As with any political situation, the best outcome is to drive the process with knowledge rather than have an outside solution imposed.
As others have pointed out, had Kirsty Mccoll been Kirsty Brown the results would be different.
Once the casualty rate in our passtime is deemed to be unacceptable, the legislation will come in.
You may feel safe that the RYA or RNLI are not lobbying for this (but why should they, it would make them unpopular with their financial contributers), but all we are waiting for is the incident that will happen to a politicians familiy member, or an event that the papers pick up on that shows that any fool can jump into a vessle with considerable power and/or weight with no training, and kill some innocent person (or people), it's an easy story really.
Do you think before the Marchioness disaster there was lobbying for more commercial sailing rules, or was it a catalyst that the papers got hold of because a lot of young people died ?
People new to boating or this forum raise the license / training issue quite often, it's an outsiders perspective, you can ignore it if you like, but it is going to happen regardless of whether it happens to be on your particular radar because you have no control over the trigger event.
As with any political situation, the best outcome is to drive the process with knowledge rather than have an outside solution imposed.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Yoiu are proving my point!
Accident "statistics" show stability or decline. There are a small number of headline worthy accidents that might prompt a change in public opinion, usually involving small high speed boats.
However, there is not enough to get anybody worked up at present. When did you last see a headline on this subject? Incidents at sea involving sailors and other users are more usually used as a vehicle for popular entertainment where the participants are regard as heroic rather than law breakers.
You are right in one way. If there was a "disaster" such as "Motor Boat runs amok in crowded harbour, 7 killed. Driver blamed as had no experience" then a campaign might start. However there has been more than enough opportunity for such things to happen over the last 30 years or so with the massive increase in activity - but it has not.
This is not complacency, just a reflection of the evidence. I cannot recall a single conclusion from an MAIB report that related to skippers general competence (or lack of) being a contributory factor.
I read the newspapers, watch the news on TV as well as follow the specialist press and read all the reports from the relevant bodies. If I can't see anything it must be in pretty obscure places.
Accident "statistics" show stability or decline. There are a small number of headline worthy accidents that might prompt a change in public opinion, usually involving small high speed boats.
However, there is not enough to get anybody worked up at present. When did you last see a headline on this subject? Incidents at sea involving sailors and other users are more usually used as a vehicle for popular entertainment where the participants are regard as heroic rather than law breakers.
You are right in one way. If there was a "disaster" such as "Motor Boat runs amok in crowded harbour, 7 killed. Driver blamed as had no experience" then a campaign might start. However there has been more than enough opportunity for such things to happen over the last 30 years or so with the massive increase in activity - but it has not.
This is not complacency, just a reflection of the evidence. I cannot recall a single conclusion from an MAIB report that related to skippers general competence (or lack of) being a contributory factor.
I read the newspapers, watch the news on TV as well as follow the specialist press and read all the reports from the relevant bodies. If I can't see anything it must be in pretty obscure places.
nct1
Well-Known Member
Lakey
You are correct, having a law does not stop the offence, but for example I am glad we have a law against murder despite determined hooligans being able to commit that crime.
Driving without a license etc, is an easy pull for the police where the vehicle is not insured, and in certain places, the police have reduced this considerably, but serial offenders eventually go to prison.
You are right though, some will ignore the law, and it will be a pain in the you know what.
But would you want to go back to not having a driving test and a license that can be taken away for bad behaiour on the basis that some will still try and get round it ?
In terms of financial viable policing, I am afraid that we will eventually be forced to have tracking devices fitted to the boats and cars, this will make it easy to police. No system is foolproof I know but we will find technology will replace traditonal policing in many cases.