Complete novice, advice needed please

[robbieowens]

Hi, I have just acquired my first boat - a 12ft dinghy to be precise. She's seen better days and I plan to restore her. The catch is I've never restored a boat (or sailed one for that matter) and I'm not sure where to begin.

I have a setup a blog to record my journey see here http://dinghyrestore.blogspot.com/, but would appreciate some help in the following areas

1) When I have sanded back to bare wood, is it then just a case of filling any holes with epoxy and then giving the whole bottom a coat of epoxy to keep watertight.
2) What type of epoxy is suitable, how much do you need to cover the hull of a 12ft dinghy
3) Do I need to cover all the hull, or should I go to the waterline only

Sorry for all the questions and I'm sure I need further help along the way but any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rob

 

[davidej]

I may be wrong but it looke like a GP14.

If the plywood is good there is no need to epoxy -afterall the dinghy would have been made long before epoxy was in common use.

Just fill with a conventional waterproof wood filler then primer, undercoat and topcoat with a bit of rubbing down in between.

No need to buy expensive yacht enamel- a good household paint will do prefarably polyurethane.

Best of luck

 

[davidej]

Sorry just reread your post.

Can't be a GP14 if it is 12 ft long. Is it sloop rig, ie two sails going to the top of the mast or gunter, ie with a sort of topmast which lowers? If the latter, it could be a Graduate

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

.
12ft .......... not a Heron is it?

 

[dombuckley]

Second vote for the Heron: same designer as the GP14 (Jack Holt), hence the family resemblance.

 

[doug748]

Before you paint have a good poke at the plywood in the bottom, where any rainwater etc might collect. You will be looking for any soft bits. I did a similar job on an Enterprise, years ago, and when I had finished put my boot through it. Repairs are very easy, but much better to do in advance

 

[fishermantwo]

.
12ft .......... not a Heron is it?

Herons are 11 foot long, although I have seen a 12 foot one!

 

[robbieowens]

Thanks for the help, the length is 3470mm which is about 11ft 3" so I guess a Heron it is (after comparing with the measurements on Heron website and looking at the pictures)

So back to epoxy\ painting....I have sanded back 95% of the paint on the hull, there is no obvious holes or rot which is obviously good but I'm paranoid of doing all this work and putting it in the water only to leak!

I appreciate epoxy isnt cheap, but the boat only cost me £55 so I have some money in the budget so would probably prefer to put epoxy at least on the hull below the waterline, so with this in mind what would you recommend

Again all suggestions welcome.

PS As for what type of sail setup, I don't know - there are three parts to the mast setup - an metal hollow tube (~10ft), and two wooden poles (~8ft and 12 ft, I haven't measured these just estimating). I presume the metal section is the base of the mast as it has a bit at the end which looks like it will fit into the mast step (is that the right word), as for the other two pieces I guess the boom and the other piece of mast although I've no idea. It came with two sails - a main and jib (I think).

 

[davidej]

Sounds like a gunter rig which means the 'mast' is in two parts. One of the wooden poles probably has cheeks at one end. The top of the sail is inserted in a groove near the cheeks then drawn along and secured at the other end. The cheeks are loosely tied round the mast then the pole (proper name gunter) is hoisted until it is vertical with most of its lenght extending above the mast.

If you are really intent on epoxy, you probably want to skin it with lightweight glass cloth impregnated with epoxy. Quite difficult to avoid wrinkles and air bubbles particularly around sharp corners, but if you get any you can sand down and patch without any ill effect.

If you work at it, you can get a fabulous finish, but it can only be done in a warm atmosphere.

Look at the West System or SP resins websites for instructions amounts etc

 

[reginaldon]

Heron, great little boat, so much better to sail than the Mirror. Son and I sailed almost to Dungeness (from Folkestone), wind dropped completely with a front coming up from the West and then a very strong West wind (building up to 5/6) hit us we came back goosewinged on the plane with a wake like an MTB, coming ashore was something else!
Davidej is right about the rig.

 

[oldharry]

Definitely a Heron in my view, having regularly sailed one. But I would forget about the epoxy, and use a good conventional paint system.

Epoxy sheathing as suggested will need to be done inside and out on an open boat. Rainwater is far more damaging to ply than seawater. The ply needs to be dried to not more than 15% moisture content before you start, to avoid problems later on.

It is not clear what you hope to acheive by using epoxy: if you hope to save maintenance later on it will still need to be painted regularly. Epoxy by itself is not UV proof and will break down if left exposed - yes there are UV coatings for it, but they need regular maintenance too. If the coating is damaged - and it will be on a dinghy - then water will penetrate the skin and cause rot. Hoping to make good blemishes and damage? Epoxy goes on just like paint, and damage needs to be made good with proper fillers first. Epoxy does not hide anything.

Finally looking at your photos, the wood is nothing like clean enough to take epoxy yet. Every trace of paint must come off. This will take you many hours, and unless you are very experienced, you will go right through the outer veneer of the ply and do a great deal more damage.

If you really MUST go down the epoxy route then you need to make good ALL the blemishes imperfections, damage, rot etc before you do, and I can see there is quite a lot to do. Far less work and cost is to make good then paint it. Paint can easily be replaced.

Modern plywood boats with epoxy coatings are brilliant low maintenance, but they are built that way with end grains etc sealed during construction. The epoxy is integral to the construction. It is just not possible to bring an old boat up to that standard, without creating a whole range of new problems.

Restoring an old boat is great fun: exhausting, infuriating, rewarding, tedious and a whole lot more. But dont make more problems for yourself!

 

[Lakesailor]

Pessimistic old bugger.

I restored a Heron from much worse condition than that. I had to replace a bottom section and used epoxy on the whole of the outside of the hull to reintroduce integrity to some of the ply which was begining to delaminate. I repaired frame joints with epoxy and wood dust and fitted a new deck which I also epoxied. I just varnished the inside in order to avoid any problems with water getting in and being trapped. The hull was left for a couple of months after being stripped to allow it to dry completely.

I started from this

Have a look at more pics Here

I have a directory of pictures of rigging the boat (just click on each filename)

 

[Cliveshep]

Phil, that is a magnificent varnish finish! Absolutely 1st class and must have taken ages and loads of prep work.

Are you busy over Christmas?

Just wondering..............!

 

[Lakesailor]

It wasn't just the preparation, it was the thought I should have bought a box of matches!!
I've just put a load of pics on a little web site.
If Robbie gets despondent he can look at this. http://www.lakelandimages.co.uk/HeronRepairs/
Absloutely no doubt he has a Heron. I could tell one by touch.

BTW Robbie. If you are repairing any of the frames alongside the centreboard casing it's is worth the extra effort to remove that and reseat it on the hog. That's where most leaks occur.

 

[robbieowens]

Thanks for all the help, it really is appreciated.

Firstly Lakesailor - that is a lovely boat, quality finish!
Secondly - If epoxy is going to cause me that much bother then maybe it's not such a good idea, especially since this is my first boat and first attempt at restoration. I was basing the use on epoxy by reading articles on boat kits such a Fyne etc... they all seem to use it.

So assuming I don't use epoxy and just use paint....what paint is good - International, Blakes? then 1 pack or 2 pack (not that I really understand the difference, oly 2 pack is more expensive and harder to apply)

Davidej - thanks for the rig info, one of the masts has a extra bit on, I have to take a pic on post on blog. I'll read up about the rig setup (I've joined Heron association and they have some technical documents I hope will be useful)

BTW Robbie. If you are repairing any of the frames alongside the centreboard casing it's is worth the extra effort to remove that and reseat it on the hog. That's where most leaks occur.

Thanks LakeSailor but no idea what a hog, any chance you have any pictures that show exactly where this is. Going to check out your photos now.

Thanks again people!

 

[oldharry]

Pessimistic old bugger.

Funny how often people say that.... !

Difference is you know what you are doing. Or at least, you should by now. Robbie doesnt yet - its his first go at it, Epoxy is expensive and isnt the 'miracle cure' for an old boat unless you know how to use it. I reckon he is far better off using conventional materials at this stage.

Now - when can you come and do the brightwork on my boat for me? I want mine to look like that too!

Robbie - the hog is what you would call the keel. Technically the keel is fastened to the underside of the hog, which is the main strip of wood going down the middle of the boat and to which the sides and frames are attached. Lakesailor is right, the joint between the hog and the centreboard case nearly always leaks on older dinghies. If it doesnt leak now, it soon will if you do not remake the joint. with modern sealant.

Paints: Lakesailor is clearly the expert and IIRC he uses both Blakes and International, many people use Dulux Weathershield and are quite happy with it, though you wont get a finish like his with it! Forget 2 pack at this stage - they are more for repainting GRP hulls, and need a lot of care in application, including a degree of temprature control. The basic difference is that conventional 'Yacht' paints last 3 years on average and is harder and more durable than household paints. Two part lasts 5 - 7 years, while I have seen Weathershield looking good as new 5 years on - and also needing repaint after 2 seasons! It is 'guaranteed' for ten - though I doubt Dulux would honour that on a boat?

 

[Lakesailor]

Sorry. The centreboard casing sits on the wood which forms the spine of the boat. The keel really except it doesn't protrude. That's where the leaks can occur.

Epoxy is really useful with an older ply boat. The stuff Fyne boats sell is a slow-curing epoxy resin which is very runny so mixed as a pure resin with no thickeners it penetrates right into the wood. If the ply's adhesive is failing epoxy will soak in and replace it. It saved me a lot of trouble. I would have had to replace the double curvature panel at the bow where it joins the stempost because the ply had become whispy and feathery (the boat had been full of water for some time). The epoxy, which you can see as a grey material, has bonded all the wood together and I was able to sand it back to shape. Epoxy is a lot stronger than the original wood.

It is very hard to sand so you need to apply it sparingly. It will also help to repair frame joints and ,as in the picture below, a knee joint where the frame supports the deck rail. The screw had torn from the end of the ply. You can see the epoxy with some wood dust stiffener has been run into the crack. You can contain the epoxy by surrounding the joint with pieces of thin ply with brown parcel tape wrapped around. The epoxy won't stick to the shiny side of parcel tape.

I used epoxy on the new ply deck as a coating. This saved me countless coats of varnish. I used a tung-oil based varnish for a glossy finish and only used about 4 coats. Epoxy goes grey when you sand it down, but when you apply varnish it becomes clear again so that you can see the wood's grain beautifully. If you replace the deck it is worth matching the grain port and starboard so that the foredeck looks right.
People bang on about epoxy not being UV resistant, but the sun didn't shine much in the garage I kept the Heron in.

I used Blakes single pack paints for the hull. I primed over the epoxy and used their cream paint as a top coat. The 2 pack paints are tougher but a lot more demanding to apply. You will chip your paint launching and recovering a dinghy, and beaching it for picnics etc, so it's easier to use a single pack paint to touch up with. Brush, tin, job done.

 

[fishermantwo]

The epoxy routine Lakeside is referring to is similar to a product called Evidure we use in Australia. Its a runny epoxy with biocides added that soaks into soft or fluffy ply and hardens it up. No reinforcings are used. It acts like a primer for paint or varnish.

If the ply is in good condition I would forget the epoxy and go straight for paint. Sand smooth, one coat of oil based concrete deck/paving paint. Fill minor imperfections then two more coats of the concrete paint. First coat acts as a primer. Harder paint than house or marine and easy touch up.

 

[robbieowens]

OK so I've got two choices
1) If the hull is sound just fill, primer, undercoat and topcoat using marine one pack paint OR use other suitable paint such as concrete paint\ weathershield

2) If I have any doubts about leaks, probably best to use a thin layer of epoxy (particularily below the waterline and around the "hog" areas), then paint as above.

When I get the hull completely sanded back, I will take some pics of what I think are problem areas and hopefully you can help me decide if they would benefit from epoxy or not.

 

[oldharry]

Go for it Robbie: you will find there are half a dozen different ways of tackling a job like this - each of us has a his own pet idea of what 'works', and asking for advice produces some amazing ideas and the best (only)way is to pick a consensus of opinions and do your own thing the way you think it should go.

Then you can come back and tell others how 'your' idea is really the only way to go when they ask the same questions!