Compare pros & cons.

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scotty123

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scotty123 said:
These older style boats are for sale & have IMO similarities, having never sailed any of them, how would you rate them?

1) approx 40', Salar 40 v Endurance 37, examples for sale,

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1967/salar-40-2687974/

https://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/endurance-37/565504



2) approx 46', Moody Caribineer 46 v Jongert 14m, example for sale,

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1492492/

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1267834/
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Has anyone on here sailed any of these?
 
They sail like they look and in line with their design. Heavy displacement so slow (comparatively), steady and best off the wind.

Many people like those characteristics particularly if going long distances plus they have the space for a couple to live in comfort. However, they are all old and even if cheap to buy will keep an owner busy (and probably poor) maintaining them to a good standard.
 
Tranona said:
They sail like they look and in line with their design. Heavy displacement so slow (comparatively), steady and best off the wind.

Many people like those characteristics particularly if going long distances plus they have the space for a couple to live in comfort. However, they are all old and even if cheap to buy will keep an owner busy (and probably poor) maintaining them to a good standard.
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Have you sailed any of them?
 
scotty123 said:
Have you sailed any of them?
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Yes, an Endurance 40 - just like a 37 but bigger.

Don't know what your experience is, but if you have any understanding of boat design you don't really have to sail them to know how they are going to perform. Just look at the basic design numbers like Disp/L and SA/Disp plus the market they are aimed at. Nothing magic about it - they are all heavy and lightly canvased in basic form and have hull forms with high wetted areas. So need lots of wind and sail area to get them going. Some can put in impressive daily runs in trade wind conditions (like the Endurance I sailed on, although not in those conditions, but the owner's log provided the evidence).

A caveat perhaps is that they are all built in very small numbers so there will be many variations (particularly the Endurance) in rigs, displacement, sail handling and of course sails so not all individual examples will be the same. However, the basic characteristics described will be dominant.
 
I sailed on an Endurance 40 a couple of times.
But that was a Ferro-cement boat.
I recall it as heavy and slow, but it got places.
At the time I was more at home crewing an X119, but I think the Endurance had done at least four Atlantic crossings, which is what they are meant for. Local trips seemed to involve using a lot of diesel.
It's probably why I don't like ketches.
Great boats for what some people want, but so are motor boats. It would have to fit your lifestyle and sailing plans.
To some extent I think they firstly need more sail area, but I don't think their sail carrying power is that great, certainly not for their mass.
 
A friend of mine built a ferro 35' boat, she turned out to be a very nice long range blue water cruiser but as he'd chopped foot off the keel and added ballast to to compensate that didn't really work, as we approached Cherbourg I had both feet on the opposite side of th cockpit and both hands / arms on the tiller, yes mainsheet and kicker off, foresail drawing full but I still couldn't hold her from broaching.

What with the snag of the wire armature preventing blocking any hole in the way of trying to bung it up, I think I'll give ferro a miss.
 
LadyInBed said:
given that they all perform to par, compare things like nav inst age, sail and engine condition to boat price as that is what will cost you money to upgrade.
If you want performance look at lighter plastic boats.
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Some prefer comfort & security, rather than the obviously better "performance" from big dinghies with a lid on.;)
 
Tranona said:
Yes, an Endurance 40 - just like a 37 but bigger.

Don't know what your experience is, but if you have any understanding of boat design you don't really have to sail them to know how they are going to perform. Just look at the basic design numbers like Disp/L and SA/Disp plus the market they are aimed at. Nothing magic about it - they are all heavy and lightly canvased in basic form and have hull forms with high wetted areas. So need lots of wind and sail area to get them going. Some can put in impressive daily runs in trade wind conditions (like the Endurance I sailed on, although not in those conditions, but the owner's log provided the evidence).

A caveat perhaps is that they are all built in very small numbers so there will be many variations (particularly the Endurance) in rigs, displacement, sail handling and of course sails so not all individual examples will be the same. However, the basic characteristics described will be dominant.
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Would assume, that both 'pairs' were more or less similar in regards their basic design numbers, so just mulling over any other pros/cons, trying to take our minds off the other political elephant in the room.
 
I'm not over fond of the linear galley on the Salar.

The Jongert has acres of very shiny interior varnish which would be a no-no for me.

The Moody has large windows which maybe a liability in heavy weather, but on the other hand of know of one owner who took a couple of years going to Russia and back, and another who has cruised (mostly singlehanded) to Iceland and back.
 
In my experience one mans meat is another mans poison. Asking somebody else to give you a comparison based on their criteria for what makes a good boat that is very likely to be different to your own criteria, is a waste of time. As has already been said. You can tell by looking at what are essentially boats leaning toward the motorsailing end of the spectrum, that they will all be slow sailing boats. Look like they would be useful in Northern climes but a poor choice for warmer weather.
 
geem said:
In my experience one mans meat is another mans poison. Asking somebody else to give you a comparison based on their criteria for what makes a good boat that is very likely to be different to your own criteria, is a waste of time. As has already been said. You can tell by looking at what are essentially boats leaning toward the motorsailing end of the spectrum, that they will all be slow sailing boats. Look like they would be useful in Northern climes but a poor choice for warmer weather.
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Interesting extract from a pm I got on this topic,

"An American friend of fairly vast long term sailing expetience actually took in a Salar as a trade and then was then unable to sell it on to the Anerican market and so cruised and lived on it for enough time to cruise thru the caribe and back . He said it ' blew the doors off' his previous Swan (!) because it was such an able all rounder with a v long waterline for high average speeds 'cruising' and v economical motorsailing."

PS, why "a poor choice for warmer weather"?
The Salar & Jongert do not have totally enclosed wheelhouses, plus Jongerts seem to live quite happily in the Med, where warm weather is expected. Both Endurance & Moody have deck helm positions much like most other yachts.
 
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scotty123 said:
Interesting extract from a pm I got on this topic,

"An American friend of fairly vast long term sailing expetience actually took in a Salar as a trade and then was then unable to sell it on to the Anerican market and so cruised and lived on it for enough time to cruise thru the caribe and back . He said it ' blew the doors off' his previous Swan (!) because it was such an able all rounder with a v long waterline for high average speeds 'cruising' and v economical motorsailing."

PS, why "a poor choice for warmer weather"?
The Salar & Jongert do not have totally enclosed wheelhouses, plus Jongerts seem to live quite happily in the Med, where warm weather is expected. Both Endurance & Moody have deck helm positions much like most other yachts.
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The comments about the Swan just illustrate why comparisons using third party observations are of limited use. The Swan and the Salar are such totally different boats. If you want a boat that is an "able all rounder" for leisurely cruising you would not choose a Swan.

As for what one chooses for warm weather again depends on what your objectives are. Deck houses can be intolerable if you are living on board in hot weather and those you see in the Med are usually covered with blinds and awnings. Such boats as the Moody, Endurance, and similar boats built in n Europe and Scandinavia are designed for cold northern climates. So while owners may take them to hot climates they are compromised. The open back wheelhouse, which was popular for a while was again a compromise to try and capture the benefits of covered steering position, but often comes with an aft cabin which results in a cramped cockpit. nowadays you can get much of the benefits of a wheelhouse shelter from a good sprayhood and a bimini while t the same time having a decent cockpit for open air living when at anchor.
 
scotty123 said:
Interesting extract from a pm I got on this topic,

"An American friend of fairly vast long term sailing expetience actually took in a Salar as a trade and then was then unable to sell it on to the Anerican market and so cruised and lived on it for enough time to cruise thru the caribe and back . He said it ' blew the doors off' his previous Swan (!) because it was such an able all rounder with a v long waterline for high average speeds 'cruising' and v economical motorsailing."

PS, why "a poor choice for warmer weather"?
The Salar & Jongert do not have totally enclosed wheelhouses, plus Jongerts seem to live quite happily in the Med, where warm weather is expected. Both Endurance & Moody have deck helm positions much like most other yachts.
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Living comfortably on a boat in a hot climate is nothing like living on a boat in the UK. Dorades simply do not cut it. Their air movement is negligible and useless when it's 30+degC outside. Lots of deck hatches or opening portlights are necessary to provide adequate ventilation. However, when in hot weather most people spend most of their time living outside. I can count on a single hand how many times we have say down below in our saloon for a meal in the last five years of cruising the Caribbean.
The cockpit is king in a hot climate. The cockpit needs to have shelter from the sun, ability to have good ventilation and adequate space to seat at least four people for dinner. That all my opinion and it sounds like it isn't yours but you asked. For me, varnish work in the tropics is a nightmare. Not something I want the outside on a boat.
 
geem said:
Living comfortably on a boat in a hot climate is nothing like living on a boat in the UK. Dorades simply do not cut it. Their air movement is negligible and useless when it's 30+degC outside. Lots of deck hatches or opening portlights are necessary to provide adequate ventilation. However, when in hot weather most people spend most of their time living outside. I can count on a single hand how many times we have say down below in our saloon for a meal in the last five years of cruising the Caribbean.
The cockpit is king in a hot climate. The cockpit needs to have shelter from the sun, ability to have good ventilation and adequate space to seat at least four people for dinner. That all my opinion and it sounds like it isn't yours but you asked. For me, varnish work in the tropics is a nightmare. Not something I want the outside on a boat.
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So why would the Jongert & Salar wheelhouses/cockpits not suit those hot climate situations then?
 
Minchsailor said:
I'm not over fond of the linear galley on the Salar.

The Jongert has acres of very shiny interior varnish which would be a no-no for me.

The Moody has large windows which maybe a liability in heavy weather, but on the other hand of know of one owner who took a couple of years going to Russia and back, and another who has cruised (mostly singlehanded) to Iceland and back.
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Linear gallies are fitted to Bavaria's & Beneteau's + other more modern yachts, large windows are fitted to Discovery, Oyster, etc. This not suit all tastes, so perhaps not a problem.
 
scotty123 said:
Linear gallies are fitted to Bavaria's & Beneteau's + other more modern yachts, large windows are fitted to Discovery, Oyster, etc. This not suit all tastes, so perhaps not a problem.
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Large windows are fitted in Oysters but out here they are mostly covered up at anchor negating the benefits of pilothouses that suit colder climates. When it's 30 +degC you sit outside in the breeze. When it's cold you sit in the pilothouse and look out through your big windows. It doesn't get cold here��. It's why we are here. Big windows= big solar gain. Like sitting in your greenhouse at home when the sun is blazing. When the wind drops here lots of boats add a suncover over the boat to keep the sun off. It makes a huge difference to the temperature of the boat. If you think a pilothouse type boat is a good decision for hot climates you probably haven't experienced the kind of temperatures we are familiar with.
Well designed portlights work well in the Caribbean. We quite often get short rain showers or rain squalls. They usually last 5mins but force you to close the hatches before you go ashore. We do just that but leave 1/2 dozen rainproof portlights open and the boat stay well ventilated if there is any breeze. Preparing a boat to be comfortable in hot climates can be a new experience for those that are familiar with UK sailing when the thought of sailing without your jumper on is a novelty��
 
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