Commercial Endorsements declared invalid by IOW Public Health!

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alant

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"Gareth Davies MSc. MIL.

Principal Environmental Health Practitioner (Consultation & Licensing)

Tel: (01983) 823169

Fax: (01983) 529804

E-mail: gareth.davies@iow.gov.uk

Gareth,

Further to a useful discussion today, with your colleague – Karen, who was extremely helpful in pointing out the rulings of the Solent Standing Committee, could I please draw your attention to their document issued 16th June 1994, concerning vessels carrying up to 12 passengers.

This document, in ‘Section VIII’ and in the ‘Annex – Manning’, clearly states that there are exemptions to your Boatmans’ Licence, if the individual concerned holds as minimum a RYA/Dot Coastal Skipper Certificate. As an additional requirement, this should be ‘commercially endorsed’ to satisfy all the others factors such as medical certificate, VHF Licence, Sea survival certificate, First aid certificate.

Could you please confirm, that if such certificates or higher are held, there is no requirement for a Boatman’s Licence to be held in addition.

Regards

Alan"

___________________________________________________

A copy of my e-mail to Gareth Davies, shown above, resulted in a verbal reply (e-mail awaited), in which he stated that irrespective of any other qualifications, even those given as 'exemptions', anyone 'in-charge' of a vessel carrying paying passengers (additionally explained as passengers on a charter or sea school vessel), must hold a local authority Boatmans Licence.

He, as the enforcing officer, issues licences for vessels entering Cowes Harbour. Any Skipper not holding such a licence, is breaking the law under the appropriate Public Health Act dated 1907.

Anyone not so licenced, may also be in breach of any insurance cover, should any 'incident' occur!

This I tried to explain, would require almost every commercially endorsed Skipper to apply individually to every local authority covered by the Solent Standing Committee. His responce was to the affect that it was his responsibility to apply the law, not decide it.
 
Goalposts seem to be moving all the time .I have both YM offshore and Boatmasters license.I certainly know which was the hardest to achieve.

On renewing the MCA boatmasters if you have all your bits of paper its generally a 5 minute rubber stamp job.A colleague of mine parked in town and left the family in the car while he popped in to do his renewal but then spent hours doing an oral exam.The whole thing smacks of empire building to me.

I cannot see how this would affect insurance as Coastal Skipper is a higher qualification than Boatmaster and both are governed by the MCA these days.
 
I held a Southampton boatmans licence back in the early '90s
- the rule book last reprint was 1947, the fee was 1/6d so I gave him 10p and told him to keep the change ! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif - It cost them moer than that to post it to me /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Am awaiting call back from Edmund Whelan.

Seems that vessels, can be exempt local authority licence, if already appropriately coded by MCA. However, skippers commercially endorsed by MCA are not exempt in his enterpretation.

This means that schools/charter companies eg Sunsail, are considered by Gareth Davies to be operating illegally, unless each skipper is holding a Boatman's Licence! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Sounds like an empire builder who needs a dose of commercial reality to filter in, preferably assisted by a bit of 4x2 wielded appropriately.
 
Skipper Licencing - IOW Public Health - Latest Official Version!

Alan,

I am sorry there has been such a delay since our last exchange of e-mails. I am grateful to Mark Towel of the M&CG for his helpful advice and for your courtesy in involving me in your exchanges with various yachting interests.



Mark has confirmed that the MCA certificate of Competency for Deck Officers; RYA Yacht Master or Coastal Skipper Certificate; MCA Boat Master’s Certificate are all exempt from the requirements of the local boatman’s licence though we can require a local knowledge test.



As for vessels, exemptions apply if they hold the MCA Small Commercial Vessel Certificate or the MCA Passenger Certificate.

If these various certificates are held (or higher) then there is no need for a local boatman’s licence under the Public Health (Amendment Acts) 1909.



I hope this now clears up any outstanding misunderstandings.



Gareth Davies MSc. MIL.

Principal Environmental Health Practitioner (Consultation & Licensing)

Tel: (01983) 823159 Ext 6169

Fax: (01983) 529804

E-mail: gareth.davies@iow.gov.uk
 
Re: Skipper Licencing - IOW Public Health - Latest Official Version!

Mr Davies needs to learn to use English correctly... His 'are all exempt' remark is meaningless, unless interpreted very liberally...

...and that's just for starters...
 
alant
This is an interesting thread, if not somewhat confusing /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I maybe completely wrong here because although I keep my tickets up I haven't used them for sometime now.
1. Skippers get "commercially endorsed"
2. Boats get "coded".
3. Passengers in this context means the skipper is carrying them for "hire or reward".

So, I see it that a skipper that holds a RYA YM without an endorsement but operating a coded boat is wrong - likewise a RYA YM with endorsement operating an uncoded boat is also wrong.
BUT
if you have coded boat and endorsed skipper he should be able to operate within the defined areas of his boat and own licence without the need for a local authority boatman's licence.

My BM licence is cat 2 with my nominated safe haven as Ramsgate, which means that I can make passage up to 60nm from R/gate and be accepted in any port within that area - i.e. I don't have to hold a local licence for every port inside that radius but if I'm carrying passengers then the boat has to be coded and in addition I have to have competent crew aboard according to the crewing restrictions laid out in the licence.

So if sunsail skippers are endorsed and running coded boats I don't think IOW matey has a leg to stand on but if they aren't then IOW matey is correct.

As I said I've been out of the loop a bit now so any info on this subject would be most welcome.

Peter.
 
Peter,

Thread started, following a discussion by me with a RIB charter operator having licencing problems operating out of Cowes. There was a conflict which affected any work this company were able to offer freelance skippers.

After a conversation with IoW Licencing Authority (Public Health - Gareth Davies), in an attempt to clarify the situation.

He was quoting a 1907 Law & refusing to consider exemptions such as RYA/MCA Boatmaster tickets. I refused to accept his ruling, considering the MCA as the greater authority. Otherwise, commercial skippers (carrying up to 12 passengers for gain - Charters/school boats/angling boats - ) would all have needed to apply for a licence from EACH authority in the Solent or anywhere else they practised.

This seems now to have been fully resolved after RYA & MCA made contact with Gareth Davies (who has the responsibility under the 1907 Act, to determine the guidelines on IoW). The guidelines, have never been tested uder law, which leads to any ambiguity.
 
...not to mention the ambiguity caused by Mr Davies' incompetence with English...
 
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