ColRegs

[tt65]

Rule 10 (j) States: (j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

There is no definition of "impede the safe passage" in the rules.

Can any one help with a clear legal definition of "impede" within the rules? Particularly, is it legit to expect a ship to change course for me when there is good visibility and plenty of room and time for him to do so or is this impeding the safe passage?

 

[twisterkai]

Think you need to look at the rules regarding traffic separation schemes. I think 'impede safe passage' basically means don't get in their way. See also crossing at 90 degrees etc.

Hope that helps

 

[duncan]

causing them to change course or speed would probably be considered impeding them

 

[CaptainCalamity]

Hi. I find that using the MK I eyeball and HB compass it is often impossible to tell if a vessel in the traffic lane is going to pass safely ahead until it is relative close, sometimes just a mile or two away.

If I think we'll pass too close for comfort then I make a substantial change of course, enough to be clearly visible to the bridge crew, regardless of the power vs sail rule. This is not so much as to obey rule 10j as out of courtesy - it's much easier for me to make a course alteration in my 33 footer than a typical vessel in the shipping lane.

Having said that, I can think of numerous occasions when just as I was about to make my turn, the ship in question has clearly turned to pass astern of me, so I guess it works both ways in practice.

I can think of one or two occasions when I have simply held my course under sail (in fog, in the days before radar, and running before a gale in big seas when a course change would have meant a fairly hazardous gybe), but always I work on the assumption that I haven't been spotted by the other vessel until there's a clear indication it has given way.

Hope this was helpful,

Andy

 

[tt65]

I guess my practice is similar to yours but still not clear with I have impeded a ship or not when it does change course for me in traffic separation schemes. Thanks.

 

[chrisc]

If you are at 90 degrees to the traffic scheme and doing a constant speed can you also be deemed to be interfering with traffic flow ?

 

[Peppermint]

Re: I\'ve always worked

under the rule that if they don't have to take any action I didn't impede them. So provided your manouver does not cause ships to slow down or change course your within the meaning of that part of the reg.

 

[bedouin]

Technically if the ship can safely manoeuvre to avoid you then you are not impeding it. However in practice this is widely misunderstood and I would not like to rely on other people behaving exactly as the rules say they should!

 

[twisterkai]

The 90 degree thingy is so that you spend as short a time as possible within the TSS. If the ship can maintain it's course and speed when you cross then you're not impeding it.

Think that sums it up.

 

[twisterkai]

I think it's also worth making the point that even when you're outside a TSS I'd always assume that they haven't seen me - the number of ships I've passed fairly close to with binoculars trained on the bridge and guess what? No one's there!!

 

[Sans Bateau]

How often do we in the Solent get into TSS's? Not very often, I suspect. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but true TSS's exist in Eastern Channel, and around Longships and Casscets (spelling?) on the south coast that is; I acknowledge there are others.

When we cross from Solent to Cherbourg we cross shipping lanes but not TSS's, well not according to my UKHO charts anyway. I'm not trying to simplify or trivialise the original post but does the 'crossing at 90deg' rule have any influence outside a true TSS, other than when applying common sense.

 

[KevB]

I suppose you could always "stand on" and go to heaven with the satifaction you were in the right!!

Darwins theory of "if it's much bigger stay out of the way" applies /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[bedouin]

Or you can alter course so as to increase the likelihood of collision and go to heaven knowing you were wrong /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The difficulty in cases like this is that if both vessels take action to avoid collision then the actions are likely to cancel out and make collision more likely.

In practice I take the view if I need to take action I will do so much later than the big ship. If the ship has not altered course by the time I would make an alteration were I stand on vessel I should be able to make a bold alteration to pass astern in safety.

 

[duncan]

no - you are right.

equally the 90 degree rule for TSS is as much to differentiate traffic travelling in the TSS and that not and as an aid to indicate traffic joining and leaving.

In the TSS specific 'local rules' apply - in the shipping lanes it's the colregs and common sense.

I just touch the corner of the NW bound zone when crossing direct to Guernsey from Poole and going west of the 'rubbish' off Alderney. If I go via the swinge I cross shipping lanes but not a TSS but, and there is always one!, there is an inshore TSS to the NW of Cherbourg as well I believe but it doesn't have the lane definition of the channel ones (as far as I am aware.....?)

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

I suspect that 90deg across the TSS also helps maximise your radar signature.

 

[duncan]

not sure it makes a whole lot of difference to your signature but I haven't looked from a large ships radar station!
On my radar I get th esame image return from yacht or mobo at any angle to that of a large navigation buoy.
Finally you are of course only at 90 segrees to them when directly ahead (or astern).
Be interesting to know if a 35ft yacht looks any different on a ships radar at 6 miles depending on it's attitude.

 

[chrisc]

I thought the 90degrees was purely for the purpose of giving a constant and predictable course ,it does not mean literally 90 deg to traffic but steering at 90deg your course then depends on tides etc.(ie.90 deg through water not over ground)

 

[MedMan]

This from the IMO site:

[ QUOTE ]
Rule 10 states that ships crossing traffic lanes are required to do so "as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow." This reduces confusion to other ships as to the crossing vessel's intentions and course and at the same time enables that vessel to cross the lane as quickly as possible.

In 1987 the regulations were again amended. It was stressed that Rule 10 applies to traffic separation schemes adopted by the Organization (IMO) and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other rule. It was also to clarify that if a vessel is obliged to cross traffic lanes it should do so as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of the traffic flow.

[/ QUOTE ]


The clause in bold makes it clear that the normal rules for vessels crossing one another's paths still apply. Thus, if you are bound from Dover to Calais a big ship in the west-going lane should still give way to you whether you are under sail or power. Don't bank on it though!!!!!

Me? I just keep out of the way of big ships whatever the rules may or may not say.

 

[duncan]

this might help as well

[ QUOTE ]
Elements used in traffic routeing systems include:

traffic separation scheme: a routeing measure aimed at the separation of opposing streams of traffic by appropriate means and by the establishment of traffic lanes
traffic lane: an areas within defined limits in which one-way traffic is established. natural obstacles, including those forming separation zones, may constitute a boundary
separation zone or line: a zone or line separating traffic lanes in which ships are proceeding in opposite or nearly opposite directions; or separating a traffic lane from the adjacent sea area; or separating traffic lanes designated for particular classes of ship proceeding in the same direction
roundabout: a separation point or circular separation zone and a circular traffic lane within defined limits
inshore traffic zone: a designated area between the landward boundary of a traffic separation scheme and the adjacent coast
recommended route: a route of undefined width, for the convenience of ships in transit, which is often marked by centreline buoys
deep-water route: a route within defined limits which has been accurately surveyed for clearance of sea bottom and submerged articles
precautionary area: an area within defined limits where ships must navigate with particular caution and within which the direction of flow of traffic may be recommended
area to be avoided: an area within defined limits in which either navigation is particularly hazardous or it is exceptionally important to avoid casualties and which should be avoided by all ships, or by certain classes of ships

[/ QUOTE ]

and the latest guidance notes issued on the Dover TSS I could find are here
I would agree that the general TSS rules under Rule 10 do not give vessels in the TSS precedence over crossing vessels but the specific terms of note (j) would seem to state that all power driven vessels proceeding in the TSS are to be considered as restricted in their ability to manoevre by crossing craft of less than 20m or sailing craft which was exactly the point of the original post in the thread!
So general provisions of the rules apply but powered vessels proceeding in the lanes of a TSS are restricted in thier ability to manoevre and crossing vessels as above are not necessarily 'stand on'.
The guidance notes on TSS schemes in Admiralty Publications, from the UKHO don't I think help by also being apparantly definitive
[ QUOTE ]
4.While vessels using the traffic lanes in schemes adopted by IMO must, in particular, comply with Rule 10 of the International Collision Regulations, they are not thereby given any right of way over crossing vessels; the other Steering and Sailing Rules stillapply in all respects, particularly if risk of collision is involved.

[/ QUOTE ] but of course everything again vests in the word 'thereby'.....

 

[tt65]

Well thanks so much everybody for your input. Not sure how much wiser I am now than before.

My own practice in the past has been to definitely stop or reverse if I can identify that the approaching ship is a really big one ie ULCC or VLCC or big container ship. Normal sized ships seem to cheerfully change course for me but am ever watchful in anycase. Situation of course is different if motor sailing and to me things always seems clearer at night. Thus far after 30 years or so sailing I have not had any difficult situations.

Thanks again, but keep it coming if you wish to add to this.

I cannot say I have ever seen an unmanned bridge although many other people have. Could a multimillion pound ship and cargo really be left unattended in a TSS? I doubt it.