colregs question

[newtothis]

I should probably know the answer to this, but don't.
I was on port tack when a single-hander in a race fleet, also on port but going much faster than me, came up behind me on my starboard side. He was in a race boat and I was in a charter tub, so despite being close hauled, he managed a higher angle to the wind than I could achieve. That meant that as he came up behind me he was pretty much aiming at me and getting uncomfortably close. I had limited room to maneuver; if I bore off I'd hit him, but if I went higher I'd have to tack or be in irons.
He was obviously on a mission and wasn't about to change course so in the end I luffed up and let him have it.
Question is: I was windward vessel so should have given way. But he was overtaking vessel so should have given way. But by the time things were getting nervy, he was alongside me, so not really in the overtaking situation anymore.
For context, this wasn't an around the cans race but a hop between islands in Greece; there was plenty of sea room, and no other vessels involved so he had could have borne off if he wanted to or was required to. And I wasn't part of the race.
Interested in knowing how others interpret those two rules (or if there is a hard and fast interpretation I should have followed) and what you'd have done in same situation.

 

[richardbrennan]

My assumption from your description is that he was clearly the overtaking vessel and should have given way. However, in my experience, many racing boats appear to think that colregs do not apply to them!

 

[bedouin]

The rule is clear - if he approaches you as overtaking boat he is always overtaking and must keep clear. He remains obliged to do so until he is finally passed and clear. That overrides any other rules in COLREGS,

Practically of course there really wasn't much you can reasonably do. I would probably have held my course.

Partly racing boats have a different view of "plenty of room" to the rest of us, and they usually have a good understanding of boat handling and colregs even if it doesn't always appear that way. He will have had a plan had you not changed course- he was probably intending to sail across your stern and pass you to windward

 

[newtothis]

Partly racing boats have a different view of "plenty of room" to the rest of us, and they usually have a good understanding of boat handling and colregs even if it doesn't always appear that way. He will have had a plan had you not changed course- he was probably intending to sail across your stern and pass you to windward

No, he came up alongside to starboard and was closing me from there. I couldn't have changed course to allow him to cross my stern without going into him, and I suspect he was already as close hauled as he could be.
There may have been more room than I felt there was; he could have been a few feet away and not collided, but it was closer than I was comfortable with. Which I supppose raises another question: how close is too close?
I get it that racers' views of the Colregs are different to others, and I've stood my ground to racers on other occasions when I knew I was in the right, but in this case I was doubting myself because I was windward.

 

[Poignard]

The difficulty is deciding when overtaking becomes crossing,

A faster vessel on the same course is obviously overtaking , and a vessel coming at right angles to your course is obviously crossing.

Somewhere in between those two extremes, overtaking becomes crossing. (see ColReg Rule 13 below)

Deciding where one becomes the other is not easy; especially at sea. It is easier at night time, always assuming the slower vessel's lights are accurately orientated.

By the time I had decided, I expect the racing boat would have shot past me. To my great relief!

Anyway, here is the relevant ColReg

" Rule 13 (Overtaking)

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5° abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
"

 

[bedouin]

No, he came up alongside to starboard and was closing me from there. I couldn't have changed course to allow him to cross my stern without going into him, and I suspect he was already as close hauled as he could be.
There may have been more room than I felt there was; he could have been a few feet away and not collided, but it was closer than I was comfortable with. Which I supppose raises another question: how close is too close?
I get it that racers' views of the Colregs are different to others, and I've stood my ground to racers on other occasions when I knew I was in the right, but in this case I was doubting myself because I was windward.

That is really odd as a racer would normally have more sense than to try to pass close to leeward. You would expect him either to bear away to get more speed to pass to leeward or pass to windward.

If he was so close as to make you feel nervous he was much too close - at least in Colregs terms. You were certainly in the right, and he was wrong to get that close.

 

[johnalison]

You were just unlucky in encountering someone who is a disgrace to the yachting community. As a cruiser, you were not obliged to do more than sail reasonably competently within the limits of your craft's performance and he (I presume) should have simply regarded you as a moving obstruction and something to be avoided.

 

[skipper681]

Rule number one is avoid collision but as the overtaking vessel he should alter.

 

[lw395]

From the OP's description it's not entirely guaranteed that this is not a windward boat situation.
You need to be absolutely sure you have held a constant course from before the 'overtaking' boat crossed the 22.5degree line. I.e. as stand on vessel to the overtaking vessel, have you fulfilled your obligation to stand on?

How much higher was the other boat pointing?
I can't see that the OP could not have luffed up a little, slowing a little without risk of 'going into irons'.

It would be interesting to hear the other side.

If you encounter someone like this, it's better to luff up and let them pass or even tack off. Nobody is awarding you any prizes for being in the right and the primary thing is always to avoid a collision.

 

[GHA]

(or if there is a hard and fast interpretation I should have followed) and what you'd have done in same situation.

Rule 2 B- Do the right thing, even if it's breaking another rule WHich it sounds like you did, if you had pushed it and he didn't budge and there was a collision you'd be to blame as well, so imho full marks for backing off before it got too hairy, even if the other guy was going to do something there's no way you could be sure of that. Standing on to the very end just to prove a point in situations like that is bad seamanship imho, better to have some room spare. No one gets hurt and no gelcoat gets chipped

 

[jdc]

I agree with others that, according to the OP's description, the other boat was overtaking - but whatever don't feel bad about it because he was not gong to win his race anyway. As already noted, his tactics were rotten! If he's both faster and points higher overtaking on the windward side was the better policy. But that's the problem often with racing crews; the ones who are actually going to win don't cause us cruisers any issues and it's those with little or no tactical understanding (ie the losers) who get in these pickles.

I had a similar but opposite issue once: a huge and unbroken line of racing boats on stbd tack - miles and miles of them, and I wanted to get across them while approaching on port tack; what to do? I elected to change to stbd tack and point higher. Thus I was slower but gradually made it across the line of racing yachts and was then able tack away to port. Was I irresponsible / in breach of rules or etiquette? I don't know, (would value opinion but don't want to hijack the OP's thread). What was noticeable is that the tail-end Charlies tried to pass to windward and so were delayed whereas the leading boats in their category just ducked under us (albeit maybe cursing me).

 

[newtothis]

From the OP's description it's not entirely guaranteed that this is not a windward boat situation.
You need to be absolutely sure you have held a constant course from before the 'overtaking' boat crossed the 22.5degree line. I.e. as stand on vessel to the overtaking vessel, have you fulfilled your obligation to stand on?

How much higher was the other boat pointing?
I can't see that the OP could not have luffed up a little, slowing a little without risk of 'going into irons'.

It would be interesting to hear the other side.

If you encounter someone like this, it's better to luff up and let them pass or even tack off. Nobody is awarding you any prizes for being in the right and the primary thing is always to avoid a collision.

I was also curious why he wanted to get in my wind shadow. I guess he thought keeping his line was more important than a few minutes of had air.
I was just tootling along as close to the wind as I could get. Wind was steady so my course was too.
He'd definitely come from behind, rather than across. The race fleet was going between the same two Islands as we were, and to have comee alongside so close on a similar bearing he would have had to cross through my 22.5 zone.
In the end, I did luff up, which stalled the boat as I was already close on the wind. It was no big deal and as others have said just an inconvenience and better than a collision, but I was curious about the rules.
From what the more experienced have said, I was in the right but did the right thing in taking avoiding action.

 

[prv]

Standing on to the very end just to prove a point in situations like that is bad seamanship imho

Not just bad seamanship, but also a breach of rule 17b

We can summarise the different rule situations that apply as the (potentially) stand-on boat, as a (potentially) keep-clear boat gets closer:

Long way off - no risk of collision - do whatever you like.
Closer - risk of collision begins to exist - you must hold course and speed.
Closer - the other vessel doesn't appear to be keeping clear - you may manoeuvre to avoid collision
Very close - you must manoeuvre to avoid collision.

Of course, the distances at which one situation turns into the next are massively debatable, and dependant on all kinds of factors like the size and type of the vessels, the location (open ocean or harbour channel), and so on. But wherever you place the divisions, the four stages still apply and I find them a useful structure in deciding what to do and when.

Pete

 

[LONG_KEELER]

My assumption from your description is that he was clearly the overtaking vessel and should have given way. However, in my experience, many racing boats appear to think that colregs do not apply to them!

Regrettably this is generally the case in reality . Unfortunately clubs that run the races are
not really interested .

In a number of areas where I used to sail I now motor . Try to not let it spoil your day.

 

[GHA]

Not just bad seamanship, but also a breach of rule 17b

:encouragement:

Keep forgetting about that one
Though colreg threads can get a bit argumentative sometimes there's always reminders in them

For some in depth reading >>

https://khorramshahrport.pmo.ir/fa/...34fc4720a22bed60eee51ae2e2c6db1f6b35e833c3aa2

 

[capnsensible]

Not just bad seamanship, but also a breach of rule 17b

We can summarise the different rule situations that apply as the (potentially) stand-on boat, as a (potentially) keep-clear boat gets closer:

Long way off - no risk of collision - do whatever you like.
Closer - risk of collision begins to exist - you must hold course and speed.
Closer - the other vessel doesn't appear to be keeping clear - you may manoeuvre to avoid collision
Very close - you must manoeuvre to avoid collision.

Of course, the distances at which one situation turns into the next are massively debatable, and dependant on all kinds of factors like the size and type of the vessels, the location (open ocean or harbour channel), and so on. But wherever you place the divisions, the four stages still apply and I find them a useful structure in deciding what to do and when.

Pete

Very good!. :encouragement:

 

[bedouin]

Standing on to the very end just to prove a point in situations like that is bad seamanship imho, better to have some room spare. No one gets hurt and no gelcoat gets chipped

I think we all agree with that - but the problem often is that by the time you decide to take action it can be hard to do without potentially making the situation worse if the other boat does take action.

Had it been me I would have stood on until he was overlapped to leeward and too close for comfort and then I could have pinched an extra 5 degrees while he passed. Harder to do anything realistic at an earlier point

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

Not just bad seamanship, but also a breach of rule 17b

We can summarise the different rule situations that apply as the (potentially) stand-on boat, as a (potentially) keep-clear boat gets closer:

Long way off - no risk of collision - do whatever you like.
Closer - risk of collision begins to exist - you must hold course and speed.
Closer - the other vessel doesn't appear to be keeping clear - you may manoeuvre to avoid collision
Very close - you must manoeuvre to avoid collision.

Of course, the distances at which one situation turns into the next are massively debatable, and dependant on all kinds of factors like the size and type of the vessels, the location (open ocean or harbour channel), and so on. But wherever you place the divisions, the four stages still apply and I find them a useful structure in deciding what to do and when.

Pete

Very clearly put prv..if you did all the Rules like that, it would be a best-seller and made part of the RYA syllabus :encouragement:

 

[Poignard]

Has anyone mentioned sound signals?

ColRegs Rule 34(d):

(d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. Such signal may be supplemented by a light signal of at least five short and rapid flashes.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

Has anyone mentioned sound signals?

ColRegs Rule 34(d):

(d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. Such signal may be supplemented by a light signal of at least five short and rapid flashes.

A good point, for some reason ( like motoring cones..) they are not in common usage on yachts.