Colregs "in sight of one another " quandry

[sarabande]

A gallant and experienced fellow yottie says there is no doubt about what the phrase means. I beg to differ.

Rule 3k says
"(k) Vessel shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other."


That doesn't make sense and lacks ruthless clarity. "Visually" is explained as "by eyesight or with binoculars". No mention of radar, AIS, infra-red, acoustics...

Puzzled of Exmoor

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Your gallant and experienced friend is right.

Observed visually means can be made out with the naked eye. You might use binoculars to increase definition, but 'in sight of one another' is when one vessel can be seen from the other.

 

[LittleSister]

Seems clear enough to me.

I think it is helpful that it gives certainty, and does not bring in radar, etc, that vessels may or may not have, and which could have wildly varying range and ability to discern a target.


Of course, all these other (non-visual) things are part of the 'by all available means' for look out purposes, but they do not affect whether one or other vessel must give way or stand on.


At least that's how I see it.

 

[sarabande]

Perhaps I should add, what about the "mutual" aspect ?

If Boat A can see Boat B's mast above a low bank of fog, but Boat B cannot see Boat A at all.... A sailboat with a low freeboard may have a horizon of a couple of miles; the VLCC charging towards him may be able to see 10 miles.

Confusion as to which aspect(s) of Colregs apply, or not ?

 

[bedouin]

Your friend is right - those rules only apply when in sight

If you think about it the rules about priority require you to be able to observe the other ship to determine whether it is sail/power display day marks or lights and so on

Without visual contact there can be no give way / stand on

 

[Momac]

A gallant and experienced fellow yottie says there is no doubt about what the phrase means. I beg to differ.

Rule 3k says
"(k) Vessel shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other."


That doesn't make sense and lacks ruthless clarity. "Visually" is explained as "by eyesight or with binoculars". No mention of radar, AIS, infra-red, acoustics...

Puzzled of Exmoor

I would say it means when a person with ordinary good vision can see one boat from the other.
Which, in terms of distance, could mean a couple of miles or a couple of metres depending on the weather .

 

[bedouin]

Perhaps I should add, what about the "mutual" aspect ?

If Boat A can see Boat B's mast above a low bank of fog, but Boat B cannot see Boat A at all.... A sailboat with a low freeboard may have a horizon of a couple of miles; the VLCC charging towards him may be able to see 10 miles.

Confusion as to which aspect(s) of Colregs apply, or not ?

Colregs only applies when risk of collision exists, if you can't see the VLCC then I think you are safe for the moment

 

[LittleSister]

Perhaps I should add, what about the "mutual" aspect ?

If Boat A can see Boat B's mast above a low bank of fog, but Boat B cannot see Boat A at all....
For that it would better if it were a 'mutual' test and read 'when they can be visually observed from one another' rather than 'one can be observed from the other'

A sailboat with a low freeboard may have a horizon of a couple of miles; the VLCC charging towards him may be able to see 10 miles. But the VLCC won't see the low freeboard yacht until the yacht crew can also see it. The VLCC won't be able to see a mast at 10 miles. But the revised wording above (copyright!) would also solve any such complication too.

Confusion as to which aspect(s) of Colregs apply, or not ?
I think not.

 

[RichardS]

For that it would better if it were a 'mutual' test and read 'when they can be visually observed from one another' rather than 'one can be observed from the other'

But how would you ever know that "mutuallity" had been achieved?

Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

"(k) Vessel shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other."

Highlighting is mine. I read that as a vessel needs to comply with the "in sight of one another" rules when she can see the other vessel. Ordinarily, both vessels would be able to see each other, or not. In a case where one could see the other vessel, but the other vessel could not, it matters not. There are rules to allow for that. For instance, if the give was vessel were to be unable to see the stand on vessel and therefore did not give way, the responsibility falls on the stand on vessel to take action.

 

[lw395]

[/COLOR]

Highlighting is mine. I read that as a vessel needs to comply with the "in sight of one another" rules when she can see the other vessel. Ordinarily, both vessels would be able to see each other, or not. In a case where one could see the other vessel, but the other vessel could not, it matters not. There are rules to allow for that. For instance, if the give was vessel were to be unable to see the stand on vessel and therefore did not give way, the responsibility falls on the stand on vessel to take action.

The give way vessel will see the stand on vessel after a time, then it will give way.
So long as vessels are operating such that they can see other vessels soon enough to give way, there is no problem.
Realistically if I see a ship from my small boat at 5 miles, and give way to it at 3 miles, giving a half mile clearance, what's the problem?
He may have seen me at 10 miles, but need not panic until about 1 mile. The big boys track you and expect you to react at a couple of miles, maybe 5.
Mostly they track you far more accurately than you can track them and know that their paint is not threatened.

 

[Graham_Wright]

But how would you ever know that "mutuallity" had been achieved?

Richard

+1.

 

[KellysEye]

In sight is the right word, ship's superstructure is visible above the horizon. Radar is irrelevant many boats don't have it.

 

[Neil_Y]

And as one person has added already, Colregs only come into play when there is a risk of collision.

You use all available means to asses the risk of collision but you won't be doing much until you are in sight in most cases. One exception being thick fog, when running on radar you may take action before you see the other vessel.

 

[capnsensible]

'He's Behind You!'

 

[john_morris_uk]

The give way vessel will see the stand on vessel after a time, then it will give way.
So long as vessels are operating such that they can see other vessels soon enough to give way, there is no problem.
Realistically if I see a ship from my small boat at 5 miles, and give way to it at 3 miles, giving a half mile clearance, what's the problem?
He may have seen me at 10 miles, but need not panic until about 1 mile. The big boys track you and expect you to react at a couple of miles, maybe 5.
Mostly they track you far more accurately than you can track them and know that their paint is not threatened.

Exactly so.

And the essence of this appears to be much misunderstood or ignored by many people skippering small boats.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The give way vessel will see the stand on vessel after a time, then it will give way.
So long as vessels are operating such that they can see other vessels soon enough to give way, there is no problem.
Realistically if I see a ship from my small boat at 5 miles, and give way to it at 3 miles, giving a half mile clearance, what's the problem?
He may have seen me at 10 miles, but need not panic until about 1 mile. The big boys track you and expect you to react at a couple of miles, maybe 5.
Mostly they track you far more accurately than you can track them and know that their paint is not threatened.

I agree there is no problem, i've always had that same attitude. It's easy for us to give way, rather than expect bigger ships to do so. I've been told on here that if i'm the stand on vessel i'm obliged to stand on, but i think that's not only wrong, it's nonsense and foolish. If we take action early enough there is no risk of collision and Colregs are immaterial (with respect to give way/stand on).

My previous post was in response to the "mutuality" comments. One does not have to consider such things, you are responsible when you can see the other vessel.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

. . . My previous post was in response to the "mutuality" comments. One does not have to consider such things, you are responsible when you can see the other vessel.

Absolutely. If you can't see anyone else, your only obligation is to navigate in such a manner as you can react in time when you do become aware of another vessel.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

For me "in sight of one another" means that EACH one is able to see the other.

Bearing in mind that , for me, English is a foreign language, the sequence of events in the real world would follow in this order:

1. Boat A would see another Boat B
2. Boat A does not know whether or not Boat B is able to see A BUTknows of the requirement to prevent a collision (the basic purpose of the COLREGS, isn't it?)
3. Boat A keeps an eye on Boat B, observes its movements and takes any measures that may be necessary to avoid a possible collision situation from developing.
4. As the distance that separates the boats becomes less, the situation will be clearer and, eventually, each boat will know which one is the stand-on and will take the appropriate action as per the relevant other rules in the COLREGs.

This is how I understand it and that is how I would face such a situation... hoping that I am correct, of course!

 

[RichardS]

I've been told on here that if i'm the stand on vessel i'm obliged to stand on, but i think that's not only wrong, it's nonsense and foolish. If we take action early enough there is no risk of collision and Colregs are immaterial (with respect to give way/stand on).

Ooooops .... that's torn it.

Richard