ColRegs? Boats under oars/sweeps

[snowleopard]

The Wikipedia version of the Colregs has Rule3, , stating that a rowed boat is a power vessel, but I've never seen it in any other version.

I just looked here and there's no trace of 3. Some suspicious editing going on!

 

[prv]

I just looked here and there's no trace of 3. Some suspicious editing going on!

See my post number 11 on this thread - I removed it. Looking through the article history it was added some time last year, nothing to do with this thread.

Pete

 

[snowleopard]

There are some cases in the rules where the give-way vessel may be just too slow to get out of the way and it behoves the stand-on vessel to keep clear. For example an asymmetric dinghy may approach too fast for a displacement power boat to avoid them. A rowing boat would have difficulty getting out of the way of pretty well anything.

I think "The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules." covers the case where you are stand-on but the other guy is too slow to get out of your way.

So - it doesn't much matter what rights rowing boats have, your choice is generally to go round them or sink them.

 

[Evadne]

Succinctly put. Reminds me of what my Dad's driving instructor told him, "pedestrians always have right of way, wherever they are, you're not allowed to run them over".

 

[jdc]

what rowers are taught

I was always taught that rowing boats (by which we meant ivs and viiis etc, not particularly kayaks and dinghies, altough the same should apply I think) are 'propelled by machinery' and thus come under the definition of a 'powered vessel'.

While I don't suppose 1 in 20 coxes has a clue about this (or indeed any other matter to do with watermanship or manners), what British Rowing (fka the ARA) say we are supposed to do is contained in this document from the PLA (which applies not just to the tideway):

http://www.pla.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/THE_ROWING_CODE.pdf.

The gist is that one has to obey rules 9(b) and 9(d) which relate to a duty not to impede other boats within narrow channels. Quite how as bow, and thus steersman, of a coxless iv racing on the tideway I was supposed to see enough to obey any of this I never quite worked out...

 

[LittleSister]

A vessel under oars is NOT a power driven vessel, which is defined as 'any vessel propelled by machinery'. (To those trotting out the hoary old suggestion that an oar is a lever and some definitions of 'machine' include levers, and therefore (supposedly) oars are machinery, note that a sailing rig is a system of levers, too!)

There is no express provision for crossing situations involving vessels under oars. However, a vessel under oars has all the other obligations under the rules, such as lookout and avoiding collisions, and when overtaking (it does happen!) has the same obligations as any other overtaking vessel.

A while ago I asked the RYA about vessels under oars and crossing situations and got the following reply from the RYA legal dept. -

"In my view, the express inclusion of a reference to “a vessel under oars” in Rule 25 and the fact that this Rule applies different requirements for vessels under oars from those applied to power-driven vessels suggests that the expression “power-driven vessel” does not include a vessel under oars.

I acknowledge that the crossing rules you refer to do not expressly include reference to vessels under oars. I believe, however, that vessels under oars would nevertheless be covered by the requirement to keep a look-out, to use all available means to determine whether a risk of collisions exists and to take action to avoid a collision."

 

[andygc]

Haven't claimed a Lakesailoring for a while but posting a link that leads to the link I posted must count.

Ah, but if you look very carefully at the address bar in your browser, you will find that it isn't the same address, but it is the same document. You are welcome to score the points anyway.

 

[Lakesailor]

Part B 4(c) Of the Lakesailor Rules allows for different wording

 

[andygc]

note that a sailing rig is a system of levers, too!

Really - where is the lever? A lever has to have a fulcrum, a load at one end and an applied force at the other.

 

[andygc]

Part B 4(c) Of the Lakesailor Rules allows for different wording

Thank you for the link to the Rules. In my defence, my link also led to the IMO amendment.

 

[lovezoo]

Really - where is the lever? A lever has to have a fulcrum, a load at one end and an applied force at the other.

Well, well, well. Here is one definition of "Machine":

ma·chine (m-shn)
n.

A simple device, such as a lever, a pulley, or an inclined plane, that alters the magnitude or direction, or both, of an applied force; a simple machine.

I think "an inclined plane, that alters the magnitude or direction, or both, of an applied force" is a pretty good description of what a sail does.

 

[Cymrogwyllt]

speaking as a kayaker (ex) it made sense to keep out of the big things' way.

In the event that we could not use water too shallow for them we kept well clear.

On one occasion the uni ship gave the ' what I now now as turning to port' horn signal when we were returning from a trip to puffin island. A couple of paddlers got a few new white hairs.

 

[snowleopard]

Really - where is the lever? A lever has to have a fulcrum, a load at one end and an applied force at the other.

Not a complete definition. Consider a lever with a fulcrum at one end and both force and load on the same side (consider traditional nutcrackers).

There are certainly levers involved in sailing with lateral resistance of the keel acting as fulcrum, wind on sails as one force and righting moment as the other.

 

[jdc]

what's the 'machinery' definition for then?

The idea that oars are machinery I mentioned because that's what us rowers are told by the ARA. What makes it 'hoary' exactly?

Of course we can play at sophistry and argue that sails are somehow machinery by taking dictionary definitions of our choice and pretending that in that case sails are machinery also, but it gets us nowhere (maybe that's the point of col regs threads of course - to pass the time in the manner of dons at All Souls debating angels and pin-heads). But being less erudite I note:

1. The PLA/ARA document says in several places "For the purposes of this rule rowing boats must act as power driven vessels"; and

2. The col regs include the rather odd definition of power driven as 'propelled by machinery'. I've always wondered what this is for: it can not be argued that it is in order to confuse sailing craft with power driven craft so presumably it's to clarify something. But what? That pedalos count? That yet-to-be-invented photon drive engines count? I honestly don't know.

What I am certain of is that when rowing I assume that we act like a power boat, and that's what our code of conduct insists upon.

 

[LittleSister]

and that's what our code of conduct insists upon.

That's right, your code of conduct, not the IRPCS.

If a vessel under oars is a power driven vessel, why do do the Regs provide differnt lights for them, for instance?

Obviously you know better than the RYA.

 

[timbartlett]

The idea that oars are machinery I mentioned because that's what us rowers are told by the ARA. What makes it 'hoary' exactly?...

What makes it "hoary" is simply that it is old!

1. The PLA/ARA document says in several places "For the purposes of this rule rowing boats must act as power driven vessels"; and

Local authorities (such as the PLA) are entitled to make their own rules and guidelines to cope with local circumstances , so long as they do not conflict with the colregs. The mere fact that they stipulate "For the purposes of this regulation... rowing boats are to act as power-driven vessels." suggests that they are not power driven vessels, merely that they have to act as power driven vessels in certain defined circumstances. In other circumstances, they are specifically permitted to do things that are denied to power driven vessels under the PLA rules (eg proceeding abreast) and are required to do things that pdv's are not (eg operate in the inshore zone when proceeding against the tidal stream).

The fact that the PLA rules do not regard rowing boats as power driven vessels becomes particularly clear when they say "Coaching Launches may either act as rowing vessels following the above rules, or navigate as a power driven vessel abiding by all appropriate regulations.

2. The col regs include the rather odd definition of power driven as 'propelled by machinery'. I've always wondered what this is for: it can not be argued that it is in order to confuse sailing craft with power driven craft so presumably it's to clarify something. But what? That pedalos count? That yet-to-be-invented photon drive engines count? I honestly don't know.

I don't see anything odd about the colreg definition of "power-driven vessel" -- particularly as it is immediately followed by a definition of "sailing vessel". The definition of PDV means what it says and says what it means: a vessel is PDV if it is propelled by machinery. If it is not propelled by machinery (i.e. if it is a sailing vessel, or a dumb barge) it is not a PDV.

What I am certain of is that when rowing I assume that we act like a power boat, and that's what our code of conduct insists upon.

While it is true that the colregs do specifically cover some pretty odd-ball devices (eg WIG craft and seaplanes!), they do not cover everything (eg pedaloes, kiteboarding, surfers). They don't even specify directly that anyone should give way to a vessel at anchor -- even though I think most of us would agree that it makes sense to do so.

The PLA guidance seems (to me) to be aimed at those whose hobby is rowing, rather than at seamen. As such, it makes perfect sense for it to clarify/simplify some of the points that seamen would regard as "the ordinary practice of seamen".

"Behave as though you are a power driven vessel" probably isn't a bad simplification in the particular context of sport rowing boats on inland waters, but it is far from complete and entirely inappropriate for (for instance) an inflatable tender in somewhere such as Portsmouth Harbour or a sea kayak in open water.

And finally... The lights specified for vessels propelled by oars are not the same as for those propelled by machinery, but are the same as those for a vessel under sail. If an approaching vessel can see only the lights appropriate to a sailing vessel, then she will expect the vessel displaying them to behave as a sailing vessel. If the authors of the colregs had intended that rowing boats should behave as PDVs, surely they would have specified that they should also show the appropriate lights.

All IMHO, of course!

 

[bbg]

And finally... The lights specified for vessels propelled by oars are not the same as for those propelled by machinery, but are the same as those for a vessel under sail. If an approaching vessel can see only the lights appropriate to a sailing vessel, then she will expect the vessel displaying them to behave as a sailing vessel. If the authors of the colregs had intended that rowing boats should behave as PDVs, surely they would have specified that they should also show the appropriate lights.

All IMHO, of course!

Tim is right in that, at night, vessels under oars are entitled to show the same lights as sailing vessels. The implication is that they are entitled to be treated as if they were sailing vessels - at night. It is somewhat strange that they have not been lumped together with sailing vessels for the purposes of Part B, but they haven't.

The short answer is that it is impossible to reach a definitive conclusion until there is case law on the subject (which hopefully there never will be), or IRPCS are amended..

 

[colingr]

Really - where is the lever? A lever has to have a fulcrum, a load at one end and an applied force at the other.

Ummm, Mast and boom.


Sails providing the force, mast foot applying that force to the boat and boom transferring force to the mast.

Rudder

Keel

The whole yacht is a mass of levers forces and fulcrums

In fact the hull could be seen as a fulcrum between the mast and keel

 

[snooks]

Really - where is the lever? A lever has to have a fulcrum, a load at one end and an applied force at the other.

A lever doesn't have to have the force and load at opposite ends

From memory there are three types of levers

Load - Fulcrum - Force eg scissors
Fulcrum - Load - Force eg nut crackers (a boom with a applying force using a sheet at the end eg Westerly)
Fulcrum - Force - Load eg tweezers (again a boom with kicking strap applying the force)