COLREG - near miss between a cruise ship and a 46' MoBo

[MapisM]

Maybe some of you already heard of a couple which is circumnavigating on a '46 trawler. They are cruising around Italy at the moment, and the latest update of their log reported a near miss situation with the Royal Clipper, a 5000T SV.

Also the rest of their log is interesting, if anyone would like to have a look. But I'm attaching an abstract of what happened, because I would be interested to hear the views of the colreg experts among the forumites, since I know there are indeed some.

...we saw what looked like a condo in the distance but it was in fact a 436' sailing ship with five masts and counted xx sails. We were on a close approach course but they were only making 3.4 knots under sail probably spilling wind to time their arrival in Ponza. After turning on the iron sail and running a parallel course with Egret along the chain of islands, they stayed just off the stbd side about 1/2nm then started easing over and slowing slightly. So we popped off the waypoint and moved over a few degrees to port and they kept easing over. Finally they were Real close and made an obvious move to port and miss Egret's stern by just a few meters. I don't mean 1/8nm or whatever, I mean literally a few meters. So we hammered the throttle and turned to stbd sharply, called Idiot Captain of SV Royal Clipper on VHF 16 low power (they were so close) - no answer - then on high power - no answer. We have never before seen such unprofessional behavior from a supposed professional crew, and carrying passengers no less.

 

[AndieMac]

'Voyage of Egret'

Thanks for the link M, I hadn't read this very latest blog but knew Scott and Mary are going to winter in Italy.
Got to admit, I do find his entries very entertaining, he doesn't pull any punches, just tells it how it is.
Make sure you catch up with them if you can, they are both really inspiring people.

It sounds like commercial skipper behaved like some others...'might is right'.
I wonder if the skipper chose to ignore the channel 16 call or was monitoring a separate commercial channel that Scott was not aware of, either way, I doubt if he could care less

 

[nimbusgb]

Umm.

Royal Clipper a square rigged sailing vessel 'making 3.4 knots under sail ' and a 46' motor trawler?

RC would have had generators and stuff running but may well have been still a pure sailing vessel.

Did I miss something?

 

[oceanfroggie]

Umm.

Royal Clipper a square rigged sailing vessel 'making 3.4 knots under sail ' and a 46' motor trawler?

RC would have had generators and stuff running but may well have been still a pure sailing vessel.

Did I miss something?

I was thinking the same! If sail v power mobo should have made significant course changes earlier, not a slight deviation, BUT both including the sail should have taken action to avoid the near collision, not just 'cling' to stand on status. We don't know if the cruise ship was also under power or not which changes matters somewhat.

"Might is right" may not be correct, but it's the right way to avoid risks.

 

[nimbusgb]

In addition the channel for Ponza is listed as 09. My guess is that the Royal Clipper would have been on that channel to keep the anchorage aware of her operations.

Perhaps the master of the Royal Clipper did not respond to a hail on 16 in order to save our MOBO hero some embarrassment?

 

[Whitelighter]

Even if the RC was under power, from the description it sounds like they were the stand on vessel and Egret should have made a distinctive turn to avoid collision.

Maybe the slight turn or holding course made by egret meant the RC decided to turn late (as required) as the captain could assume Egret wasn't going to

 

[DAKA]

When it gets as close as this neither were stand on vessel and both were in contempt to get as close as this !

Seeing as the sailing vessel was initially the stand on vessel being apparently under sail and apparently being overtaken the mobo should have over taken with much greater care and safety margin, Having being on a parallel course while overtaking large ships several times I just drop back and go around the stern (after checking charts to see if the ship has any reason to alter course).

 

[Poignard]

Two vessels on parallel course. The one to starboard wishes to alter to port. So he will obviously want to pass astern of the vessel on his port side. He turns to port and reduces speed ("..started easing over and slowing slightly").

But the vessel on his port side, instead of maintaining his course and speed, also alters to port ("So we popped off the waypoint and moved over a few degrees to port ...")

Seems to me the sailing vessel did exactly the right thing and the motor boat did exactly the wrong thing, by not maintaining his course and speed and allowing the other to pass safely astern.

Looks like the 'Idiot Captain' was the 'living the dream' guy.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Firstly, we're not talking a sail v power situation here because Egret's report states that Royal Clipper 'turned on the iron sail' which I take to mean he started his engine and was then making way under power. IMHO both skippers are at fault here. The Colregs require vessels to avoid a close quarters collision situation and by turning to port towards Egret, Royal Clipper failed to do this. Royal Clipper having done this though, there then existed a crossing situation in which Egret became the give way vessel. The Colregs state that the give way vessel should not cross in front of the stand on vessel so IMHO, instead of turning to port, Egret should have either stopped or turned sharp to starboard to avoid doing this. The fact that Royal Clipper passed only a few metres astern of Egret was probably the Royal Clipper's skipper's way of conveying his displeasure to Egret.
So IMHO and to sum up, I think Royal Clipper shouldn't have caused the collision situation in the first place and Egret acted improperly once a collision situation became apparent

 

[MapisM]

Seems to me the sailing vessel did exactly the right thing and the motor boat did exactly the wrong thing, by not maintaining his course and speed and allowing the other to pass safely astern.

My first thought exactly - and regardless of whether the SV was under power or not.
It's the alteration to port of the MoBo which I didn't understand, though I suppose it might have been just an instinctive reaction...

 

[BartW]

Also the rest of their log is interesting

It surely is !
its a detailed description of the island Ponza,
that we visited with Bleu Angel just 3 weeks ago, we almost crossed Egret.
(could use their text for my trip report )

about the colregs, I'm happy to learn from the specialists,
but I don't fancy to join the discussion

 

[benjenbav]

I would venture to suggest that when RC stopped running parallel and moved to port, both were under power and both thought (arguably wrongly) that Egret was the give way vessel and both thought that Egret was taking avoiding action (per rule 16) which was taken early but was perhaps insufficiently substantial to give the degree of comfort for which Egret had hoped.

 

[wakeup]

Maybe some of you already heard of a couple which is circumnavigating on a '46 trawler. They are cruising around Italy at the moment, and the latest update of their log reported a near miss situation with the Royal Clipper, a 5000T SV.

Also the rest of their log is interesting, if anyone would like to have a look. But I'm attaching an abstract of what happened, because I would be interested to hear the views of the colreg experts among the forumites, since I know there are indeed some.

...we saw what looked like a condo in the distance but it was in fact a 436' sailing ship with five masts and counted xx sails. We were on a close approach course but they were only making 3.4 knots under sail probably spilling wind to time their arrival in Ponza. After turning on the iron sail and running a parallel course with Egret along the chain of islands, they stayed just off the stbd side about 1/2nm then started easing over and slowing slightly. So we popped off the waypoint and moved over a few degrees to port and they kept easing over. Finally they were Real close and made an obvious move to port and miss Egret's stern by just a few meters. I don't mean 1/8nm or whatever, I mean literally a few meters. So we hammered the throttle and turned to stbd sharply, called Idiot Captain of SV Royal Clipper on VHF 16 low power (they were so close) - no answer - then on high power - no answer. We have never before seen such unprofessional behavior from a supposed professional crew, and carrying passengers no less.

I've sailed on SV Royal Clipper and have been up on deck for hours in daylight and at night and I can assure you this ship is run very professionally with very experienced staff. Because the unusual nature of this ship (is the largest sail boat in the world), at every port she approaches or leaves, she attracts a lot of interested boats. In fact I was sitting in the bow sprit coming into St Tropez a few years ago when a sunseeker 48 literally passed underneath me to have a 'closer' look at the boat. So I guess the crew are used to idiot boaters getting close and they have to hold their course until a collision is likely.

No comment on the circumstances simply that I was really impressed with the way the crew and captain throughout my time on board.

 

[Mariner69]

The 'condo' was on the starboard side at a distance. The distance closed and the bearing did not change appreciably; risk of collision exists.

Egret turns to starboard, for the vessel on his starboard side - no difference between sail or motor vessel - since a crossing situation.

If Egret overtaking then still his obligation to take prompt and early action.

If Egret knows the other vessel is slowing to pick up a pilot or entering port, yet another good reason to keep clear.

 

[Poignard]

It would be interesting to listen in, on a nautical knowledge or practical ability conversation between yourself and Scott Flanders. It's a safe bet he has forgotten more than you will ever know.
Being able to catch him out on a few lines of text, doesn't put you anywhere near the class of mariner he is, remember he's doing it (and done it!) and you're only the dreamer.

of course unless you can prove otherwise.

I suppose you expect a response to that extraordinary outburst, so here goes:

1. The bulk of my sailing is now done in the most crowded waters in the world (the English Channel) where understanding and application of the Collision Regs, (and common sense), is an everyday necessity. I also sailed for 5 years in Hong Kong, (similarly crowded waters), in my own yacht and as coxswain of a Marine Police launch there. I have also sailed in the Med. and across the Atlantic.

2. 'Being able to catch him out on a few lines of text'. Do you mean what he himself wrote?

3. If the situation was as he described then he was in the wrong to alter to port. He writes that the ship ‘.... stayed on his starboard side about 1/2nm then started easing over and slowing slightly’. An obvious indication that the ship intended, quite properly, to pass astern of him, which it would have done by a good margin except that, by his own admission, ‘ ... we .... moved over a few degrees to port’. If two vessels are running parallel to each other, and abeam of each other, and one slows down, a crossing situation cannot exist. He should have maintained his course and speed. By altering to port he increased the danger, leaving the ship’s OOW no option but to to sharply increase his rate of turn. He was lucky to be able to ‘.... hammer the throttle ....’ to get himself out of an awkward situation of his own making.

4. Regarding a conversation between your friend and me; I doubt much would be achieved by it. People who dismiss experienced and qualified shipmasters as idiots are not the sort of people I can be bothered to talk to. Far more interesting would be a conversation between your friend and the ‘Idiot Captain of SV Royal Clipper’, whose self-restraint is to be admired.

5. Now, can you please tell me what you think the two vessels ought to have done?

 

[lovezoo]

Ooh, good stuff - we haven't had a "my log book is bigger than yours" thread for a while.

 

[Swagman]

Someone should tell the blogging skipper that commercial vessels are no longer obliged to monitor channel 16.
It may be daft but if you want to call up a commercial vessel you'll need to know their MMSI.
Cheers
JOHN

 

[Poignard]

Ooh, good stuff - we haven't had a "my log book is bigger than yours" thread for a while.

Yes - fair point. But he did insist on knowing. It's not my fault if I inadvertently upset a Scott Flanders groupie!

 

[Ludd]

What, because I left out the rolly eye icon from the end of the last sentence then again you did number all your paragraphs, so must have thought they were worth reading

Colregs debates unfortunately have the tendency to drag in bitch slapping raggies, with open books, reciting chapter and verse, desperately trying to prove themselves more knowledgeable than others.

Don't have a problem with that, after all it just comes with the territory, you expect it.

What about your line, "people who dismiss qualified and experienced ship masters as idiots".....how do you know who was on the helm at the time? or was it the fact the ship had sails that made it so proper.

Reading the endless whinings on Scuttlebutt how the big red ferries (with qualified and experienced masters) show no respect to the poor sailors, and run them down indicates not all commercial captains get it right.

You, however crossed the line with that personal jibe about a good friend of mine, who just happens to be a highly accomplished global cruiser. So guess what?

Take a look at your own public image, you've been on the forum for nearly two years, but haven't got the gonads to display a Bio with anything about yourself.
In my books that reeks of a soft c@ck (apologies if female), with no credibilty on past achievements, so just keep on dreaming about real men like Scott, who gain respect by putting their real name next to what they are about.

have a nice day

Don;t often look on MOBO forum,but this one caught my eye. What a load of *******s ! The situation was made very clear by the mobo skipper---he did what you ain't supposed to do,he altered to port!
Before anyone asks, I have a long history with motor boats having been brought up in Scotland as a fisherman's son and having spent a fair time at sea ,including trips to Iceland(never landed,just nicked their fish!) before retierng to sail,though "purist "sailors would tell you I've got a motorboat! Even fishermen,contrary to what is expressed on these forums,generally know this particular colreg!

 

[Ludd]

WTF has it got to do with you!

I said I couldn't give a toss about the crossing situation, but this prat made a remark about a mate of mine that I found offensive.

So feck off you dick-head!

Don't you just love the raggies

Offensive? Read WHAT YOU JUST WROTE----IGNORANCE AND PREJUDICE PERSONIFIED! Hoist by your own petard,I think!