Colour blind & RYA/MCA

[snowleopard]

Andy, I'd really be grateful for that!

Meanwhile I'm already searching for a place with one of those lantern tests, to see how hard they are in reality. Like seeing the traffic lights a mile afar, or trying to see through a needle hole 6 feet away. Anybody with experiences to describe?

Dort

I took the test 35 years ago. I recall it was pinpoints of light at a distance of around 10 ft. They weren't very bright so, even with normal vision I wasn't always certain. The white could look a bit coloured, possibly as a result of interference fringes.

The test consisted of a series of pairs of lights. Not too difficult when they were different but a bit more tricky when they were the same and there was nothing to compare with.

 

[andygc]

Why am I not surprised that the MCA doesn't respond to e-mail enquiries?

I had a bit more time on my hands so I had another search around the MCA website. After reading through pages of medical standards I came to this, which is the definitive statement on colour vision requirements. The relevant document is MSN 1765(M):

COLOUR VISION

Deck officers and ratings - Colour vision should be tested by the approved doctor with Ishihara plates, using the introductory plate, and all the transformation and vanishing plates. Those used should be recorded on the medical report form (ENG 2). Candidates who fail the Ishihara colour plate test may apply to one of the MCA’s nominated Marine Offices listed at Annex C to this MSN, for their colour vision to be re-tested using a Holmes Wright B lantern.

Engineer and radio department personnel should have their colour vision tested by the approved doctor using Ishihara plates (as for deck department). Those who fail the Ishihara test may apply to any registered optician for confirmatory testing using the Farnsworth D15 test or City University test.

In all cases where a follow-up test has been undertaken, a report showing the result must be returned to the approved doctor, on the basis of which he/she will decide whether it is appropriate to fail the candidate or issue a full or restricted medical certificate, reflecting the duties the seafarer will be required to undertake.

Any decision relating to subsequent colour vision testing should be officially recorded by the Marine Office or optometrist and retained by the seafarer with the ENG 1 to avoid the necessity for repeated secondary testing.

Other personnel should be tested for colour vision, where relevant for the duties to be undertaken, using the Ishihara plates.

In other words, if you are red/green deficient and you want a commercial endorsement to your RYA YM certificate you will need to contact one of the nominated Marine Offices to arrange a Holmes Wright lantern test.

They are:

MCA MARINE OFFICES WHERE LANTERN TESTS ARE HELD

1. Aberdeen Marine Office
Marine House
Blaikies Quay
Aberdeen AB11 5EZ Tel: 01224 597900 Fax: 01224 571920

2. Hull Marine Office
Crosskill House
Mill Lane, Beverley
North Humberside HU17 9JB Tel: 01482 866 606 Fax: 01482 869 989

3. Southampton Marine Office
Spring Place
105 Commercial Road
Southampton
SO15 1EG Tel: 023 80329329 Fax: 023 80329351

 

[Ariadne]

As I remember my MCA Oral exam at Liverpool - I had to produce my ENG1, sight test cert' and all other relevant bits of paper before being allowed to 'sit' the exam.

The exam was a series of questions that covered just about everything you could think of and all sorts of various situations including using models for docking situations. Taking horizontal and vertical sextant angles, demonstrating that you could use various nav aids and explain how you would use the info. Bearing in mind you had already passed all your written papers before going in. Don't know about the RYA, but my MCA examiner held an Extra Masters F.G. with a life time at sea to go with it - he knew his stuff and just wanted to know I did.

No actual practical exam, as you had to have a minimum of two years seatime in a watch keeping capacity to get there, along with testimonials to state you were a sober, upright and reliable character!

When I passed he shook my hand and wished all the best in my career at sea, then got me a cup of coffee to recover!

 

[alant]

Looking for commercial endorsements and/or the more advanced amateur tickets (Coastal to Ocean).

I have a red & green vision deficiency, while I am not completely colour blind. And while sometimes it takes me a while to recognise the colour of a distant buoy or a light, I do fare quite well while navigating. Due to many factors, sometimes seeing it first despite everything, and sometimes just knowing what should be where, I often know what's going on before better-sighted mates do.

Does anyone have experience if RYA/MCA are willing to issue restricted tickets for the 'colour blind' like me, or perhaps even equate practical abilities over the medical exam?

This is embarrassing, never been in trouble (quite the opposite) in practice, .. until reading up what they want.

Dort

SWMBO, asked a 'logical' question, which was why Red/Green were originally used to distinguish port/starboard etc.

Anyone know?
Was it simply that these were the easiest glass colours to make?

 

[Dort]

SWMBO, asked a 'logical' question, which was why Red/Green were originally used to distinguish port/starboard etc.

Anyone know?
Was it simply that these were the easiest glass colours to make?

I believe they were chosen rather accidentally by IALA just out of the various colours used around the world to create a uniform standard. Which still doesn't explain why not e.g. blue.

On topic: anyone gotten a daytime only ticket straight off the examination? Without a lengthy chat with the MCA?

 

[jipsey]

In 2005 I completed a degree in Watersports Studies and Management at Solent Uni with the intention of heading off into the big world to work on super yachts. At the same time I scraped together the money to do my Yachtmaster ticket and all the relevant RYA courses. A couple of weeks before I was due to head off I went to have my ENG1 medical only to fail the ishara test.

I have colourblind family members on both sides of my family, and as a female colourblindness is very rare. I'd had a number of tests using the Ishara test at school and passed all of these but the doctor explained that the test is only true if undertaken under specific lighting conditions (its a while ago now but I think it needs to be under a pure white light, I can pass fine under a normal everyday light bulb), most doctors don't bother with the proper lighting but I'd managed to find a particularly fastidious doctor who was only able to issue my ENG1 with restrictions.

The doctor advised me to contact the MCA to appeal this decision and so in April 2006, when I was next in the UK, I went to the MCA headquarters in Southampton for the lantern test. This did not cost me anything (I still have my 'free certificate' to say that I am indeed colourblind!). I also went up to see specialists at the Moorfield eye hospital in London to check that it wasn't a case that my colour vision was deteriorating, but it would appear that it is a condition that I have always had, but it just wasn't picked up because I can just about complete the ishara plates under a normal bulb. I spent over 2 years working afloat as a deckhand but came back to the UK to a 'normal job' after being advised by the RYA and MCA that any comercial endorsement would be severly limited (who in their right mind is going to employ a mate/captain who needs an equally qualified person with good colourvision to stand next to them at night?). The frustrating thing is that having good sight otherwise I was usually able to see lights, and often identify reds/greens, at a further distance than others onboard, but that doesn't count!

I'm currently undertaking a total career change and would strongly advise anyone who would like a career afloat to go and get their eyes checked thoroughly before splashing out on expensive courses. If your doctor hands you the ishara test under the normal light then ask to do it under the proper conditions otherwise it might catch up with you years down the line!

 

[whipper_snapper]

A friend of mine, and one who I have sailed with many times, always fails the 'card' tests. He requested a lantern test and failed that too. And yet, he can distinguish red from green, apparently perfectly reliably. I regularly challenge him by day and by night to distinguish these colours and he appears to be every bit as good as I am (I have no problems with the standard test).

So what is going on ?

He is able to get commercial qualifications at any level in theory, but always endorsed to say 'not to stand watch alone at night'. Which seriously limits his employability.

 

[Moodyjim]

Quite agree with Snowleapord, the white can be a bit "yellowy" at least when I did it 48 years ago!

 

[nicholasdonohoe]

so is there any hope of being commercially endorsed if one is colourblind?

 

[Samiam]

Has anybody used Chromagen lenses or the Azman color correction system based in the USA to take an MCA Eng 1 medical?? Are aid lenses or glasses accepted?
Look forward to hearing any responses.

 

[johnchampion]

As another who did the lantern test a few times many years ago I agree with the previous comments on it and that it was needed for all deck officer tickets although once you had Masters FG there was no more testing, and indeed in those days there was no ongoing medical checks such as ENG1 today.
I passed my latest ENG1 a few months ago and once and can confirm it includes the Ishihara tests. You don't actually need ENG1 for an RYA commercial endorsement, you can get an ML5 which lasts longer but is not so comprehensive and can be done by an ordinary GP while the ENG1 has to be done by an MCA approved doctor which may explain why some GP tests are perhaps not so rigorous as previously suggested by some as regards testing conditions.
It was not unusual many years ago for someone to have been to sea school, completed an apprenticeship and then find out when up for 2nd mates that they were colour blind and therefor in need of a new profession as their chosen one had just closed it's doors on them. At that time glasses were not allowed for any of the eyesight tests either although they are now.
The investigations people have come up with so far seem to apply to the MCA STCW side and not to RYA tickets and there may not be an option with the RYA to try a lantern test if the Ishihara one has failed.
However while I feel sorry for someone who is colour blind in relation to this I fully support the position that any sort of ticket which qualifies someone to be on lookout or holding a watch should not be issued to any one if they are colour blind. If I were a ship owner I don't think I would be very happy entrusting several hundred millions to someone who could not distinguish which way another ship was going and as far as yachts and small boats are concerned the safety question has to be paramount when issuing someone a ticket and if you can't reliably make out what lights you are seeing then you cannot claim to be safe. There's just no way round it.

 

[sarabande]

hmmm !

Since 1999 Dr. Thomas Azman has been using the ColorCorrection System™.
Dr. Azman has been 100% successful and guarantees success in passing the Ishihara Color Plate Test - the international gold standard.

 

[Ariadne]

Sorry, I agree with the fact if you fail you fail - my life and my families lives are is in danger if you can't legally distinguish red/green.
The idea of the eye tests is so you actually see without any aids. It was explained to me many years ago - 'You are on board a ship, you loose/break scratch/etc, your glasses/vision aids/whatever - what are you going to do now; you can't see properly, and therefor you can't stand your watch so somebody else has to do it for you'.
As for the DDA, it doesn't even enter the argument in this case.

It's a big nasty old world out there, just learn to live with it.

 

[timbartlett]

The idea of the eye tests is so you actually see without any aids.

Do you think that should apply on the roads, as well? After all, cars don't have radar or AIS to help avoid obstructions and most pedestrians (not to mention most cyclists) don't even bother with lights!

 

[noelex]

hmmm !

Since 1999 Dr. Thomas Azman has been using the ColorCorrection System™.
Dr. Azman has been 100% successful and guarantees success in passing the Ishihara Color Plate Test - the international gold standard.

The Ishihara is not a gold standard.iIt is a screenimg test. Yes it possile to cheat this test,but what does that achieve?

 

[noelex]

A friend of mine, and one who I have sailed with many times, always fails the 'card' tests. He requested a lantern test and failed that too. And yet, he can distinguish red from green, apparently perfectly reliably. I regularly challenge him by day and by night to distinguish these colours and he appears to be every bit as good as I am (I have no problems with the standard test).

So what is going on ?

He is able to get commercial qualifications at any level in theory, but always endorsed to say 'not to stand watch alone at night'. Which seriously limits his employability.

People with a mild colour vision defect will distingish Red from green in resonably good illumination conditions or with resonably saturated colours.
The colour vision tests are designed to eliminate those people that will have difficulty under adverse conditions. Do you trust this person on watch at night when there is some haze/fog about?
Get them to wake you if they see a vessel at night would be my advice.

 

[noelex]

Dort

I wrote to the MCA at the end of last week to ask for clarification on their policy. They have a document on their web site which says that the seafarer's vision test is Ishihara, but another document that describes the use of the lantern test to permit seafarers with a degree of red/green impairment to be assessed fit for lookout duties (which is the issue at point here). I'm interested in the answer from a professional perspective. I'll post the answer here when I get it.

Andy

The Isihara is a good screening test, but it does nothing to gage the severity of the defect. The lantern test is a better prctical test. People with a very mild defect will generally pass the lantern test, but fail the Isihara.
There are, however, some colour vision defects that the Isihara does not pick up. Worth thinking about next time you fly on a 747 or board a fast ferry. The captain probably has only passed an Isihara test.

 

[ean_p]

Mmmm i'm colour blind but can easily see the difference between red and green lights at sea....but to me the red and yellows are close and the white and the greens are close until quite close to.... so can easily see a port hand light on the side of a ship between the cabin and work lights but not so easily see a starboard light against the same background....likewise in a channel the green lights don't stand out clearly from the white.....and why or why don't we use blue ligts either....never any problem with blue lights!

 

[Ariadne]

Do you think that should apply on the roads, as well? After all, cars don't have radar or AIS to help avoid obstructions and most pedestrians (not to mention most cyclists) don't even bother with lights!

Get a grip, who mentioned anything to do with driving a car???? If you want my opinion for what its worth, then yes I would agree with that if came about for driving a car - and for exactly the same reasons!
Most yachts don't have active AIS - and most accidents in a car don't involve flying a helicopter/diverting shipping/calling out a lifeboat or anything else that involves putting other peoples lives in danger to rescue you AT SEA!!!!

What is the problem here, if you don't meet the required standard then tuff. If I fail my next eye test then I'll have to accept it and get on with my life, same for an ENG1. Its a requirement for the job, and the job is at sea without a nanny state/do-gooder/bunny hugger/tree lover/litigation lawyer or anybody else to hold your hand/glasses for you when it all goes pear shaped and the brown smelly stuff hits the fan. The last thing you need to worry about is can the person in the wheel-house see you/anything or has he/she dropped their glasses and therefor is not able to take a watch and actually perform the job they are employed to do!

Get over it!

 

[noelex]

Do you think that should apply on the roads, as well? After all, cars don't have radar or AIS to help avoid obstructions and most pedestrians (not to mention most cyclists) don't even bother with lights!

In many countries there are colour vision standards for drivers, especially commercial drivers (busses taxis etc)
The incidence of road accidents, particularly rear end collisions is significantly higher with some types of colour vision defect. It is argued however depriving someone of a private driving license is a significant reduction in there liberty, ability to work etc so in many countries without restrictions on private licenses, society tolerates a higher risk of accidents from these people.
People paying a fare for their journey have a right to expect the driver does not have a disability that significantly increases their chance of an accident. Commercial drivers also spend more time on the road, hence the restrictions.