Collisions at speed

[colingr]

Not wanting to get involved in the Hamble accident thread on scuttle where various sailing folk are expressing their unhappiness with high speed craft I was wondering whether they have a point.

Having been located in the Southampton area all my life I cannot recall a high speed collision between a power boat and a yacht. That's not to say it has never happened.

Apart from the incident yesterday I am aware of a boat hitting an unlit buoy one Cowes week firework night some years ago and the Red Jet hitting a channel marker last year. I'm sure there have been more but maybe they have not made the news.

So is this a perceived, rather than a real fear on the part of our sailing colleagues?

 

[jrudge]

Not sure it has anything to do with fears of sailing boats, but more to do with using appropriate speed for the conditions.

If it is crowded water and there are obstructions ( bouys in the case of the accident) then have a speed appropriate to what is going on.

You should not be going so fast that the unexpected actions of another, or and unexpected action in general ( in the current case a fishing pot in your way) , then cause you to have a collision.

This is the same in a boat as in a car in my mind. If you drive down a street with parked cars on both sides you drive slower incase a child runs out or someone opens their car door.

I am glad you started this thread - the accident thread is dominated by people who seem to know the person who had the accident and I would not want to interfere with their very real worries as to the welfare of all concerned. There is however an uncomfortable "fact" ( only that stated in the other thread which may or may not be correct) that the vessel went past a bouy at one assumes a considerable speed ( boats don't flip that easily) and a minor change in course apparently caused a significant collision / event / injury. A wider distance between the boat and bouy would have avoided the collision, and made any need to swerve a non event.

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

Having spoken to Vector themselves it seems that the collision with the marker buoy happened after the boat flipped during a turn. They are not yet sure what caused the boat to flip but a mechanical fault is suspected as they were slowing down after their final high speed run. The boat was an engineering prototype on sea trials with four of the company's employees on board inclduing the very experienced Peter Dredge at the helm. No doubt the full story will emerge in the MAIB report.

 

[colingr]

Hugo, I'm aware of that which is why I started a separate thread to discuss the sailing fraternities fear of, and comments about, fast boats in general. I didn't want to post on the accident thread as I thought this was a separate subject and not relevant to the crash.

 

[MapisM]

Having spoken to Vector themselves it seems that the collision with the marker buoy happened after the boat flipped during a turn.
They are not yet sure what caused the boat to flip but a mechanical fault is suspected as they were slowing down after their final high speed run.

Interesting. Stepped hulls have a reputation for their inherent poor stability, and it's not unheard of them to "hook and spin"- particularly if/when slowing down during a fast turn.
Far from suggesting that this alone was the reason of course, also because any experienced racing helmsman surely knows all this stuff (and then some) much better than myself.
Just saying...
The important thing is that eventually it was confirmed that nobody was hurt too badly.

 

[burgundyben]

Its not just about speed though.

The Red Funnel car ferry runs at 12 to 15 knots, the Red Jet at ~35 knots, many pleasure boats at speeds up to 80mph (or more) as seen this week. All of them have greater ability to avoid and accident by slowing, stopping or changing course than a big commercial vessel at much lower speeds.

 

[neale]

many pleasure boats at speeds up to 80mph (or more) as seen this week.

I think that's a bit misleading. Most pleasure boats are max'd out at about 30-35 knots. I've driven a couple of race boats in my time and even they didn't reach 80mph. I think these kinds of speeds are reserved for the more serious race boats, and there aren't that many of them in the Solent at any one time.

 

[colingr]

Even the RIB experience and power boat fun trip boats tend to top out about 35 - 40 I know I've had fun racing them a few times

Very few boats go much faster than that around Southampton Water (Huntons excepted of course IanH!)

 

[annageek]

So is this a perceived, rather than a real fear on the part of our sailing colleagues?

I'd say it is a real and justifiable fear... in a way. But that doesn't mean it needs changing, in the same way I wouldn't support placing a blanket 20mph speed limit across the nation's roads. It'd certainly reduce accidents and remove many risks but would be detrimental in many other ways. Clearly, driving for the conditions is more important than driving for the speed, so why stop at 20mph? Why not go to 5mph? There's not too many conditions where driving a car at 5mph is unsafe... but there are some. So why not ban cars altogether!! It'll abate all fears and remove all risks of driving completely! Not sure it'll be overly popular though.

My point is where do you stop?

I'd say there is as much risk associated with the sharing of water between large commercial vessels and smaller pleasure craft. Suppose a mobo or yacht was, for some reason to become immobile just ahead of a container ship. The consequences could be just as dire as a high speed incident. I know there are moving exclusion zones around large vessels in the Solent / So'ton water, but training isn't mandatory, and therefore, not everyone is aware of the details of such exclusion zones. So what could we do?

1. Make these exclsuion zones permanent, such that no leisure traffic may enter them - that wouldn't be popular among most!
2. Enforce training of some type so that only suitably qualified people may use the space - It's fairly pragmatic in my opinion, but the reason it hasn't happened is because the idea is quite unpopular amonga certain few who (rightly or wrongly) believe it's their right to put to sea in UK waters without any training/licencing. I can sympathise with both sides of that argument.
3. Do nothing and accept the associated risks as we do when we drive cars in congested areas - which is what has, is and will contunie to happen for the forseeable future.

The recent incident near Hamble is tragic and I wish nothing but best to all of the crew and anybody else affected. It was a professional race crew though, so lack of training or experience is unlikely to be a factor. Speed obviously played a part, but I am unsure that it is really the root cause. As I see it, this is sort of no different to a horrible sports car accident on a track day, for example. It's a risky endeavour - but thats why people do it!

Like I say though, sometimes risks don't pay off, and we're left with the terribly sad situations like yesterday's.

 

[Whitelighter]

Life is a risk.

If you can't accept the risk, fine go do something else where you can.

 

[jrudge]

I think that is true to a point, but when you hurt others ( passengers) and need to get rescued ( who may also put their life on the line - although not in this case) I am afraid I don't agree with you.

Sure, everything has risks, but you have an obligation to manage them. If you want to go off in a single seat plane and do low level aeros until you hit the ground in a remote area where there is no chance of hitting anyone then I might agree with you, but if you take risks that impact others then no. Manage them and get it wrong then fine, but I am not sure that high energy manoeuvres next to a solid object is managing them that effectively to be honest.

 

[prv]

the sailing fraternities fear of, and comments about, fast boats in general.

As a member of the "sailing fraternity" in the Solent, I don't have a fear of fast boats. I don't think many do - I found the comment in the other thread surprising.

Pete

 

[Ian h]

but I am not sure that high energy manoeuvres next to a solid object is managing them that effectively to be honest.

Do not think that is a fair statement on the driver until we know the facts of what actually happened.

 

[Ian h]

Even the RIB experience and power boat fun trip boats tend to top out about 35 - 40 I know I've had fun racing them a few times

Very few boats go much faster than that around Southampton Water (Huntons excepted of course IanH!)

Thanks Jokerboat, Have to admit to going down Southampton water sometimes flat out. 48 knots, But have been in other Huntons going a lot quicker. ,
Southampton Water can also throw up some random waves at times and not from any obvious source,

 

[superheat6k]

Thanks Jokerboat, Have to admit to going down Southampton water sometimes flat out. 48 knots, But have been in other Huntons going a lot quicker. ,
Southampton Water can also throw up some random waves at times and not from any obvious source,

Hoodlum ! Still you will be able to find your way more effectively now, eh.

 

[Ian h]

Hoodlum ! Still you will be able to find your way more effectively now, eh.

Yes thanks to your great work, Am mindfull I have to post the project on here

 

[henryf]

Flat out we are a nad over 30 knots but a large-ish boat. The gunwhale is quite high off the water so I can see it would be intimidating were we bearing down on you at a rate of knots. But we try to take definite and early avoiding action. The benefit of our size is that we are in a more calm environment, we are't getting shaken to bits so hopefully we can see where we are going. The faster you go the more you concentrate, it's human nature, but I do have a constant fear of not seeing a camouflaged - yes really, canoeist or paddle boarder in the middle of the Solent.

The irony is that the only incident I can recall between a small boat and a large commercial vessel was that yacht at Cowes week. Yachts seem to get tangled up amongst themselves quite a lot and that would be at speeds under any realistic limits.

Were the worst to happen speed would clearly be a deciding factor in apportioning blame. A 50 knot speed boat hitting a 7 knot Nordhaven you'd tend to side with the Nordhaven.

The big one for us is poorly marked lobster pots. I see them as the most dangerous thing in the water at the moment. Get them regulated first and then worry about blanket speed limits and the like.

Henry

 

[l'escargot]

I think location is more an issue than speed. Southampton Water and the Solent are recognised not only as confined waters but also have a very high concentration of boats of all types from kayaks to commercial shipping and even swimmers. Are they really appropriate areas for high speed runs? There are open waters not far away.

 

[prv]

There are open waters not far away.

Problem with open water is it's often not flat enough for small boats to go fast.

Pete

 

[l'escargot]

Problem with open water is it's often not flat enough for small boats to go fast.

Pete

If that's the case then perhaps the confined waters have equally good reasons for small boats not to go fast too? One's open but too bumpy, the other is flat but too crowded/ too many navigation marks/ too near to shore?