Collision Regs question

[scotty123]

From another forum.

Two sailing vessels, very close together, are both sailing at similar speeds & on courses which will eventually coincide. Both are on same tack.

One vessel (A) is to windward, close inshore, so is unable to manouver inshore because may ground.
The other vessel (B) is getting closer as they progress, with a course which will cause the windward vessel to run aground, should they continue sailing these courses.

(1) Is (A) giveway, because its windward vessel.
or
(2) That (A) may either be 'restricted in ability to manouver' due to risk of grounding, or 'constrained by draught', making (B) giveway vessel.

What is forumites view?

 

[capnsensible]

Why doesnt A slow down......

 

[scotty123]

Why doesnt A slow down......

Maybe it will lose steerage.

The question was being asked in regard to collision regs, not practical sailing!

 

[Elessar]

From another forum.

Two sailing vessels, very close together, are both sailing at similar speeds & on courses which will eventually coincide. Both are on same tack.

One vessel (A) is to windward, close inshore, so is unable to manouver inshore because may ground.
The other vessel (B) is getting closer as they progress, with a course which will cause the windward vessel to run aground, should they continue sailing these courses.

(1) Is (A) giveway, because its windward vessel.
or
(2) That (A) may either be 'restricted in ability to manouver' due to risk of grounding, or 'constrained by draught', making (B) giveway vessel.

What is forumites view?

Assuming b isn't overtaking slowly, a has to give way. He doesn't have to drive up the beach to do so.

 

[Athene V30]

(2) That (A) may either be 'restricted in ability to manouver' due to risk of grounding, or 'constrained by draught', making (B) giveway vessel.

Rules state that a sailing vessel cannot be considered as RAM or constrained by draft.

 

[Woodlouse]

Vessel A should have maneuvered to avoid vessel B before the situation became critical.

If you need to it's generally acceptable to call for water even though the other boat isn't obliged by the rules to give it.

When racing I believe a call for water has to be honoured if no other means of avoiding mishap are available.

 

[capnsensible]

Maybe it will lose steerage.

The question was being asked in regard to collision regs, not practical sailing!

So is my answer.......

 

[scotty123]

Rules state that a sailing vessel cannot be considered as RAM or constrained by draft.

Which Rule is that?

 

[Athene V30]

Which Rule is that?

3(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

3(h) The term "vessel constrained by her draught" means a power-driven vessel which because of her draught in relation to available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Which Rule is that?

3(h). The term “vessel constrained by her draught” means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

"Restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" would not apply in this case: it covers vessels doing particular types of work, not topological or handiness restrictions.

 

[skisimon]

Why doesnt A slow down......

The question was being asked in regard to collision regs, not practical sailing!

I think there's enough in ColRegs to back up capnsensible's suggestion as slightly more than practical sailing. Rule 8(e) - reduction of speed to avoid collision - covers sailing vessels. From Cockroft's definitive interpretation of the rules:

Rule 8(e) also applies to sailing vessels. Sailing vessels must, if necessary, slacken speed in order to avoid collision or allow more time to assess the situation. This can be achieved by luffing up into the wind or reducing sail. Moving the rudder hard over to one side then hard over to the other may also help to bring the speed down.
Cockcroft and Lemeijer (2004)

There is nothing in the IRPCS which absolves (A) of its responsibilities as the give-way vessel. Obviously, in the ideal situation, (B) will have the awareness to realise what is happening (especially given that he's navigating in the area himself, so should know the likely challenges which (A) is facing). Failing that, I like Woodlouse's idea of actually communicating if possible.

All else fails, then reduction in speed is the only other option permitted by the ColRegs, and is the only rule which is a get out of sorts in this situation.

Just my thoughts though...

 

[RichardS]

The vessel near the shore simply needs to tack away from the shore and go behind the leeward vessel. If the vessels are so close together that the windward vessel cannot tack then it surely only needs to slow down for a few seconds to be able to drop behind the other vessel.

Talk about RAM or CBD seems completely OTT to me in this situation!

Richard

 

[VO5]

The vessel near the shore simply needs to tack away from the shore and go behind the leeward vessel. If the vessels are so close together that the windward vessel cannot tack then it surely only needs to slow down for a few seconds to be able to drop behind the other vessel.

Talk about RAM or CBD seems completely OTT to me in this situation!

Richard

Seconded.

 

[dratsea]

Personally I would just spill a bit of wind, let B get ahead and heading for shallow shore and spare myself the effort of looking at echosounder.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

The vessel near the shore simply needs to tack away from the shore and go behind the leeward vessel.

Exactly

If the vessels are so close together that the windward vessel cannot tack then it surely only needs to slow down for a few seconds to be able to drop behind the other vessel.

And in any case boat A has left it too late to take action.

Boat B is obliged to take action to avoid collision if boat A cannot do so or is not doing so. Boat B cannot simply sail into boat A or drive boat A onto the rocks. Or rather he can do but would be breaking colregs and the law.

 

[Bru]

From another forum.

Two sailing vessels, very close together, are both sailing at similar speeds & on courses which will eventually coincide. Both are on same tack.

One vessel (A) is to windward, close inshore, so is unable to manouver inshore because may ground.
The other vessel (B) is getting closer as they progress, with a course which will cause the windward vessel to run aground, should they continue sailing these courses.

(1) Is (A) giveway, because its windward vessel.
or
(2) That (A) may either be 'restricted in ability to manouver' due to risk of grounding, or 'constrained by draught', making (B) giveway vessel.

What is forumites view?

The more I thunk about it, the more simple the scenario seems to be ...

If the two vessels are sailing close together on courses that will eventually coincide, that implies no significant difference in CoG between the two vessels. In which case, it would seem that B is overtaking A and must give way.

If this is not the case, A has simply to slow down to let B get ahead or, if this will be insufficient or is undesirable for some other reason, bear away from the shore, gybing if necessary, and pass astern of B (and it also follows in this case that B is probably on a course which will lead to them running aground if they don't alter course)

This is purely theoretical - I haven't exactly got a lot of practical experience to draw on yet! I sketched it out quickly to get a feel for it and in the attached image B1 is in the overtaking zone and must give way to A whereas B2 is crossing and A must give way to B2

 

[Topcat47]

Simples!

 

[goboatingnow]

Like all hypothetically COLREG questions , these are meaningless, boats dont drop out of space into the described situation

There are either a previous overtaking process, which should have required one or the other to keep clear until past, or now as both vessels are in a potenial immediate collision situation, both (A) and (B) have to act to prevent collison, no one has right of way.

 

[john_morris_uk]

From another forum.

Two sailing vessels, very close together, are both sailing at similar speeds & on courses which will eventually coincide. Both are on same tack.

One vessel (A) is to windward, close inshore, so is unable to manouver inshore because may ground.
The other vessel (B) is getting closer as they progress, with a course which will cause the windward vessel to run aground, should they continue sailing these courses.

(1) Is (A) giveway, because its windward vessel.
or
(2) That (A) may either be 'restricted in ability to manouver' due to risk of grounding, or 'constrained by draught', making (B) giveway vessel.

What is forumites view?

Firstly Vessel 'A' isn't 'restricted in her ability to maneuver' - that category is normally reserved for vessels constrained by their own ability - not outside influence in the way described. Its more to do with lack of maneuverability than constrained by the coast or shallow patches...

IMHO Rule 2 B applies:

(b) In construing and complying with these rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

In other words, the leeward boat must allow the other vessel room to move...

Disregard all the discussion about overtaking - its much simpler than that! No right of way. Ultimately both vessels must avoid collision and see Rule 2 B as above...

 

[SAMYL]

Vessel A can call for water to tack and vessel B has to give it.
Failure to give water can be construed as 'not taking action to avoid a collision' regardless of the circumstances.