Collision in the Chanel du Four

AntarcticPilot said:
Practically every yacht has a blind spot behind the genoa when the wind is forward of the beam; it is an inevitable consequence of fore-and-aft rigs. On mine, it is easy enough to move to leeward in the cockpit to see round the jib, or (more usually) get another person to check from time to time. You can also duck to look UNDER the genoa, though if heeled much, that won't work, and some styles of genoa that are cut very low don't allow it. I presume the OP meant that it was the jib or genoa that obstructed his vision - the mast alone wouldn't do that, as even a small movement would clear the sight line.

However, I am very aware of the difficulty of seeing on the forward leeward quarter, and take steps to ensure I know what's there - as the OP pointed out that he should have.

Incidentally, for me, moving to the foredeck wouldn't help much - the Genoa would still obstruct the view to leeward.
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Humm, Interesting! I understood that the advent of modern large jibs and esp a Genoa meant that the traditional Port / Starboard lanterns mounted on Mast Shrouds were quite ineffective when under full sail compared to the smaller Jibs on a Traditional Cutter rigged craft.
OK another Fred Drift O know :-)
 
Capt Popeye said:
:confused:

Fred Drift a bit here I am afraid; but might I ask that if a Yacht is rigged as from new and the visibility forward (or anywhere else) is obscured and a definite blind spot is built into the design by construction, is the Designer and Manufacturer responsible for the situation.
ie not really built for purpose ?
Rather like an Automotive Manufacturer building and supplying a car with in built faults that can cause accidents.
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Not really - it's more like a car manufacturer supplying a car that runs in close proximity to pedestrians, will kill them if it hits them, and is prevented from doing so only by the skill of the semi-trained human being behind the wheel. I.e. Every car out there, because that's a condition inherent to all non-self-driving cars. Just like not being able to see round the jib from the windward side of the cockpit is inherent to all conventionally-rigged yachts.

Pete
 
Too much verbage on here.
Both were at fault for not keeping an adequate lookout.
Splitting hairs you could say being on the stb tack gives one the right of way!
Don't think the Insurance Company will buy it.
Mad Pad
PS Next time I'm a sailing a yacht on stb. sailing into a fleet on port tack do I retire to my bunk and blame any collision on this rule.NO WAY
 
Blurry forunners! Of course anyone sailing down the C de F around the end of June, against the tide and dangerously close to lunchtime, is bound to be a Blurry Englishman. 'Mad dogs' and all that....

Blurry forunners ought to know by now to get out of the blurry way and let a proper Englishman flying a proper English Ensign pass through without let or hindrance. Never mind the blurry Local Rules!

What? Never? It was another blurry Englishman wot caused all the fuss? Didn't stop to exchange businesss cards? Prob'ly one of those mail order blue-ensign jobbies! Blurry cad!

Wot's the world coming to?

'Rumph!
 
prv said:
I didn't comment on it at the time, but the OP's description of the other boat being hidden "behind the mast" had me fairly baffled. Firstly the simple geometry of the thing - a mast might reasonably obscure a speck on the horizon, but a yacht must surely look wider than a mast long before it becomes an imminent collision risk. Rotating wing-masts possibly excepted, but I think we can discount those.

Secondly, even when the other vessel is so far away as to subtend a smaller angle than the mast - yachts move. However good the helmsman, the boat is going to be yawing more than a mast's width in the waves, so a yacht still apparently small enough to hide behind the mast is in practice going to be showing either side of it. People move too - if you're sat near the stern you've only got to move your head a few inches to one side to place the mast in front of a completely different bit of horizon.

As for the jib - yes, you need to keep a lookout behind it. On most points of sail I can see underneath mine; when close-hauled I can only do so from the leeward side of the cockpit. In that case I periodically move or lean down that way in order to check. In busy waters like the central Solent I either sit on that side or ask someone else to keep a lookout from the leeward bench. Alternatively, from behind the wheel I can sweep the hidden area by bearing away for a second.

Just saying "it's a blind spot" and trusting to luck is not acceptable IMHO.

Pete
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It is very difficult to see behind my 130% genoa last Saturday whilst singlehanded I keep it partially rolled up until past Calshot for safety. If I am close hauled I really have to hang out to see the other side so I have some sympathy. However I think there is a reasonable expectation that if as ailing on Starboard you should not be struck by another boat on port. I would say that it is more like 80:20 in the op favour.
 
Seven Spades said:
It is very difficult to see behind my 130% genoa last Saturday whilst singlehanded I keep it partially rolled up until past Calshot for safety. If I am close hauled I really have to hang out to see the other side so I have some sympathy. However I think there is a reasonable expectation that if as ailing on Starboard you should not be struck by another boat on port. I would say that it is more like 80:20 in the op favour.
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Humm, so there really is a design problem resulting with blind spots in some or even many or might be all modern Sailing Yachts where the foresails obscure adequate forward vision for the helmsman or woman.

Just how much sailing performance would be compromised if the fore sails were raised higher to afford the necessary sight line underneath them ?

As in all reality in the original posting the claimant was on Starboard whereas the obscured view would apply when on Port side as well.

Humm, any campaigners or legal eagles about, like Ralph Nader, on here ?
 
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In my view, keeping a proper lookout trumps anything else, as you are risking other peoples' lives if not.
Which means IMO that if you can't see round a foresail, you are ethically (as well as legally) obliged to
1 Organise a routine of peeping round it, for a good scan of the horizon, every couple of minutes
or
2 Furl it until you can have unobstructed vision.
This applies to any yacht, anywhere, although there are obvious differences between the middle of an ocean and well-trodden rat runs like the CdF.
People go out in small fishing boats and drift about in the CdF area by the way.
 
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Where is the OP?

Probably regretting he ever started this thread!

Also if he was on the stb. tack how did he miss a yacht sailing into his stb. side?

Also if that was the case under colregs wouldn't OP be at fault?

Mad Pad
 
Simondjuk said:
Unless in poor conditions, it's hardly challenging enough to prevent a pause for a brief exchange of words following something as serious as a fairly major collision though.

As with plenty of other places where the chart looks quite scary, the pilot books paint it as much more of a boat-length-wide, helter skelter ride of whirlpools and dragons than I see much reason for. There's plenty of width and navigable water outside the main channel in many places. Given the potentially high SOG going through with a big tide, and especially at night, having a well checked pilotage plan prepared in advance is a must for anyone like me who's not inclined to blindly trust the plotter 100%, avoiding significant wind over tide another.

If I didn't feel confident that I could afford to heave to/need to fit the emergency tiller/unexpectedly need to delay a tack for a couple of minutes somewhere without running into trouble, I'd probably have had second thoughts and not gone there in the first place.
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Agreed. Some of the comments suggest CdF is akin to rounding the Horn in a F10. I've met racing fleets punching the tide off Le Four several times.
 
Gentlemen - what a baptism of fire - I never thought for one moment that I would solicit such a wide response to my posting. I am now in a position that in the very unlikely event that should the same situation ever occur again I will know exactly what to do - thanks to the advice provided by all of you. I should mention that I explained everything to Pantaenius my insurance company and they have agreed to pay for all the repairs less my deductible which is further reduced by being a member of the CA. One of you mentioned that it would be sad day if we all had to have large numbers on our boats for identification - well what about sail numbers - most of us have a sail number and i very purposefully turned when heaving to in the hope that he would have read my sail number and contacted via the RYA registration. Obviously not.

Thank you all for your advice and observations.
 
Kasuku said:
Gentlemen - what a baptism of fire - I never thought for one moment that I would solicit such a wide response to my posting. I am now in a position that in the very unlikely event that should the same situation ever occur again I will know exactly what to do - thanks to the advice provided by all of you. I should mention that I explained everything to Pantaenius my insurance company and they have agreed to pay for all the repairs less my deductible which is further reduced by being a member of the CA. One of you mentioned that it would be sad day if we all had to have large numbers on our boats for identification - well what about sail numbers - most of us have a sail number and i very purposefully turned when heaving to in the hope that he would have read my sail number and contacted via the RYA registration. Obviously not.

Thank you all for your advice and observations.
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Baptism of fire ?? If this lot had their way you would be walking the plank :)

Good Luck to you. Any success in finding the yacht ?
 
He is here - No I do not regret starting this at all - it has been a learning curve for me!! I just want to clarify that i was hit head on but on the Stbd side of the bow if that makes any sense? I admit again that my fault lies by not being 100% on the ball with the look out. My crew was resting on his 3 hours off and we had been sailing all night crossing from Plymouth. No other excuses to be made!
 
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