Col Regs and 2 points abaft the beam

[awol]

I am of the give way obviously when it is my duty to do so and stand on until it is obviously not a good idea when that is my responsibility. A couple of days ago I was tracking NNE with about 3kts of SEasterly tide with a Dutch tanker about 6 miles away (ain't AIS wonderful?), heading NW on a steady bearing about 100deg to my track but ~120deg to my heading - i.e. he would have been in the arc of my stern light. I was motor-sailing under genoa (wind was aft and the genoa is bigger than the main and I couldn't be bothered with a spinnaker). At about a mile without any change of bearing and the AIS jumping between 0.05nm and metres I hardened up to a parallel course and he chuntered on his way.
Not terribly exciting but it left me with the thoughts of confusion between AIS and radar tracks and a boat's actual heading. At night I would have exhibited a white light and the overtaking rule is clear but by day I can understand an acceptance of a crossing situation instead. As it happens I don't even know if the tanker was aware of my existence.

 

[lustyd]

Seems like you did the right thing, and that that's why the rules say you're both responsible for the outcome. Sometimes there's a grey area, and if you're using a compass to measure whether you're right then you're certainly within the grey area and should do exactly what you did.

Fit proper AIS though, then they will see you too!

 

[scottie]

You were under power so sails irrelevant

 

[johnalison]

If he was Dutch, then you would be expected to give way, from my experience. In other cases, it would be your boat's aspect that governs the rule, not the track.

 

[bedouin]

You were under power so sails irrelevant

Depends on whether the tanker was close enough to see the Cone

 

[awol]

Depends on whether the tanker was close enough to see the Cone

Unfortunately the genoa would have obscured the cone (if I had hoisted one).
And, yes, my AIS transmits.

Just a thought on deciding between Rules 13 & 15, or maybe it is a comment on the bridge crew (if there was one) on the Dutch tanker.

 

[mainsail1]

Might is right?

 

[bedouin]

Unfortunately the genoa would have obscured the cone (if I had hoisted one).
And, yes, my AIS transmits.

Just a thought on deciding between Rules 13 & 15, or maybe it is a comment on the bridge crew (if there was one) on the Dutch tanker.

From the perspective of the tanker then the aspect doesn't matter - he would have been give way anyway by virtue of thinking you were under sail.

I also find Rule 13 a bit tricky both in terms of knowing the precise angle of approach and knowing at what point to apply the test. If you check his bearing at 6M distance that could be very different from that at 1M or less

 

[lustyd]

If you're talking about precise angles you've already gone too far down the rabbit hole. The rules describe general situations, the reality is that you must be flexible, and that's in there too but people focus too little on that part. There are many, many reasons why someone would break the rules with good reason, and we will never find out those reasons.
13b explains quite clearly that you're overtaking if you can only see the stern light, yet ignores that vessels can and do reverse. Ultimately the minutia makes no difference, if you're anywhere near a collision you need to prevent that collision.

 

[Wing Mark]

If your indicated CPA is very close to zero, in the real world there is rarely a problem, as what will happen is the little boat will go behind the big boat.
There is much more real risk if collision when the prediction is for the little boat to pass close across the bow of the big boat.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The power sail bit is irrelevant in overtaking as the overtaking rule takes priority over the power sail rule. Anyway in theory if the ship was overtaking he should have kept clear until past and clear. In fact the rules actually specify that if there is any doubt, assume that you are the give way vessel.

My experience is that ships in the channel are invariably very good at applying and obeying IRPCS. Ships in other parts of the world (eg ferries etc in the Med and sometimes in Scotland) not so good and you have to watch out that they're NOT complying and take appropriate avoiding action.

 

[awol]

The power sail bit is irrelevant in overtaking as the overtaking rule takes priority over the power dial rule. Anyway in theory if the ship was overtaking he should have kept clear until past and clear. In fact the rules actually specify that if there is any doubt, assume that you are the give way vessel.

My experience is that ships in the channel are invariably very good at applying and obeying IRPCS. Ships in other parts of the world (eg ferries etc in the Med and sometimes in Scotland) not so good and you have to watch out that they're NOT complying and take appropriate avoiding action.

"Channel"? I was in the North yin and apart from a ferry, who behaved impeccably and obviously, the tanker was the only thing that came within 3 miles of me. His course (and bearing) did not change - I am well aware of the dance of death!

 

[bedouin]

The power sail bit is irrelevant in overtaking as the overtaking rule takes priority over the power dial rule. Anyway in theory if the ship was overtaking he should have kept clear until past and clear. In fact the rules actually specify that if there is any doubt, assume that you are the give way vessel.

It matters in that if the OP was under sail then he would be stand on whether or not it was an overtaking situation. If both vessels were under power - and knew the other was a power-driven vessel - then whether or not it was an overtaking situation changes the priorities.

NB I don't think "if in doubt you are overtaking" makes much difference. There will always be a grey area where it is not clear what action to take whatever "standard of proof" you choose to apply

 

[john_morris_uk]

It matters in that if the OP was under sail then he would be stand on whether or not it was an overtaking situation. If both vessels were under power - and knew the other was a power-driven vessel - then whether or not it was an overtaking situation changes the priorities.

NB I don't think "if in doubt you are overtaking" makes much difference. There will always be a grey area where it is not clear what action to take whatever "standard of proof" you choose to apply

Think what you like, the rules are clear.
Rule 13
c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

In other words, if you think you might be the overtaking vessel, then act as though you are and keep clear.

 

[awol]

Now, doesn't that feel better? A simple Colregs post, nobody got hurt, anchors weren't mentioned and the Rev John has pronounced chapter and verse. Now, if Lakesailor was still around with his artistic photographs, it would just be like the old days.

 

[Thistle]

"Channel"? I was in the North yin

Now, that could put a different face on it. Anywhere near the TSS?

 

[awol]

Now, that could put a different face on it. Anywhere near the TSS?

No. My trajectory was Belfast to Whiting Bay. I did it in daylight but the tides might actually have been helpful had I shifted my start time 6 hours.
As a wee tangent - the next day I started at low water to come up the estuary with the flood but I had over a knot against me until past the Cloch at which point it switched and got up to +2kts at times.

 

[capnsensible]

Great Excercise to practice with a hand bearing compass too. Small whiteboard, felt tip pens and compass are all it takes to make a quick sketch, figure out some simple numbers and avoid a crossing situation.

Plus of course, it's something to do!

 

[Laminar Flow]

Again, a lovely theoretical discourse.
I am well aware of the ColRegs, but if its large and rusty I presume it didn't see me, if it did, it might have the right of way anyway, doesn't know or is unsure of the rules and consequently, I still stay out of it's way. Besides, you can always ring them up and ask what their intentions are if you are at all uncertain.
I never have had AIS and still don't, though I'm quite familiar with it from a commercial setting and frankly, I wouldn't bet my life on it. Keep a good look out, query the intentions, make clear (obvious) and decisive maneuvers. Do not assume that because they are big&rusty and obviously commercial they have a firm grip on the ColRegs.

When I was sailing up the Central American coast at night, I was called up by another vessel in my vicinity. The Fellow spoke with a very thick Eastern European accent:
"Calling vessel on my starboard side, what are your intentions?"
"I shall hold my course," I responded.
"Do you know the ColRegs," he demanded, quite abruptly?
"Yes, I do!"
Silence ... then, a lot less certain: "Are you a tug or something?" Interesting, but quite irrelevant according to the ColRegs and yes, clearly we are something.
"No, we are a sailing vessel (See ColRegs under nav lights), but I will happily change course and stay out of your way."

 

[Elessar]

Unfortunately the genoa would have obscured the cone (if I had hoisted one).
And, yes, my AIS transmits.

Just a thought on deciding between Rules 13 & 15, or maybe it is a comment on the bridge crew (if there was one) on the Dutch tanker.

What I have done in those situations is to radio the ship , state the CPA, my intention to stand on and ask their intentions. They always alter course.
I’d only recommend this if you transmit on AIS and then there is no ambiguity as to which target you are.
The colregs don’t allow for the use of VHF presumably to guard against ambiguity and they were written before AIS could transmit your identity so I don’t care.