Club Cruiser Racing

[Praxinoscope]

I wanted to bring to your attention of a club race in Saronic organized by the yachting club of Voula, under the optimistic name “Gourounopoulo” meaning the pig in the oven with potatoes. So obviously the happy winner skipper and crew have the privilege to enjoy such a meal while hot and all the others stay with meat balls souvlaki etc usually cold by the time you reach the meal committee. But of course nothing new so far, variations exist everywhere.
What makes this race worth commending and worth looking forward to it, is that the RC spends the time to calculate the starting time for each boat for a given playground of 8 miles around 4 marks. The slowest boat starts first the fastest last and while you have in front of you the race papers showing the starting times, on VHF you hear who is next etc. The fun is that by the end of the race you know straight away who is first, but an added benefit is the fleet finally converges and the battle is head to head- quite common on new fast boats. So it is fun to catch a boat knowing that from now you are ahead of it. You also watch with bitter looks other boats leaving you behind. A good experiment, and the fleet is growing every year.

Hi Pelissima, what you seem to be describing is what. we call ‘Pursuit Racing’, it needs some carefull planning as each boat has it’s own start time, as you say slowest first fastest last, and if everyone sails well you may have a full fleet arriving at the finish almost together, although this doesn’t usually happen.
Pursuit racing or as you call ‘gourounopoulo’ is great fun but it is the arranging the finish that can sometimes be dificult as somehow you need to identify the positions of the boats that don’t cross the finish line at the end of the race.

 

[Birdseye]

If you already have an established passage race, introduce a singlehanded section and see how it goes. Not a lot of extra work and if it flops it does not matter much.

Far and away the most successful series in Plymouth, at times, attracts getting on for 30 starters and it became necessary to discourage entrants. Fair enough, it was more of a Corinthian, gentleman's cruise in company but it did prove a great draw and got people out on the water.

That you call successful 30 entrants for a series in a huge harbour like Plymouth says it all really.

 

[Birdseye]

NHC is drivel.
PY is bad enough.

I very much doubt that your comments are meant seriously - they certainly are drivel.

If you wish to compete sailor vs sailor then the only way to go is one design with very strict controls on equipment. Anything other than that brings boat design and budget into the competition.

IRC being a fixed handicap based on design parameters is vulnerable to clever designers and to deep pockets, and both. Even without that, like other handicap systems it wont balance performance for every state of tide and wind. A boat at .9 wont compete on even terms in tidal waters with one on 1.05.

NHC takes a design based handicap ( drawn up with help from the RORC) and adjusts it for performance. The adjustment is automatic and so cant be fiddled by the RO to favour pals, and its clever enough not to be swayed by extreme performances. The adjustment is just what should have been done with PY though many clubs like my own didnt bother. Its like a golf handicap, and whilst suddenly turning up mid series with a set of new carbon sails might improve the performance of your old Westerly, the advantage wont last for long. A good system for clubs where the majority want Corinthian racing. At my own club running NHC we regularly get boats coming in within a second or two of each other on corrected time, so there is real incentive to improve.

Its a free country. You take your own choice of which system you sail for the most fun.

 

[Praxinoscope]

#23. +1. A well argued comparison of handicaps.

 

[lw395]

NHC simply moves a standard handicap towards an individual boat's performance.
It doesn't take any regard as to whether that performance is due to the potential of the boat or the ability of the crew.
It's good for spreading a few prizes around the beginners, and does recognise 'improvement', but when people start to reach a plateau in their performance, they tend to fall out of the prizes.
In the long run, it doesn't reward the good sailors.
If you've got a well prepared, consistently well sailed yacht, you will be beaten by poor sailors in faster boats.
That's OK for a bit of fun, but if there's no point the good sailors getting involved, who are you going to learn from?
I've done a couple of wednesday evenings on a good boat under NHC this year, we were several minutes ahead of the winners, who had a boat reckoned faster by IRC and ISC. Their sails were newer than ours, they have a full crew while we were a bit understaffed. I only get involved when the boat I'm on is short of people. We were quite happy, we had a good match race against some old mates and went for a curry with them.
We just don't bother with the spreadsheet results, they deserve very little respect.
Sadly, the winners think they are actually good at it, because that's what the spreadsheet tells them.
At least under IRC, you could get some idea of how you were really doing. And if you cared about your performance relative to one or two comparable boats, that wasn't distorted by everyone else affecting your relative handicaps.

NHC is also open to being gamed.
PY is bad enough, when people start making adjustments on scanty data. It's bad enough in dinghies, where a few people can swing a class's number.
One-design or level rating is real racing.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Well lw395, you are I think missing the point of this thread, the OP was wondering how to get more involvement in Club Cruiser Racing in their club. Of course OOD is the purest form of racing, but it doesn’t suit the average club which is predominently made up of cruising membets who just race now and then for the fun of it.
A small club such as the one I belong to, has only 38 yachts in total in our harbour, only 2 of which are designed for racing, the rest of us have cruisers of various sizes and performance, so some form of general handicapping is essential if the club is to manage any racing during the season. As the majority of our yachts are primarily used for cruising few of the owners are interested in paying for IRC measurements so a system of handicapping such as PY or NHC, no matter how flawed, provides a workable method of organising club races that all can enter and enjoy.

 

[j80]

Our club is struggling to sustain interest in cruiser racing etc

Hayling - I am a member of hisc and dry sail my boat at Sparkes. I race with the CCRC - we always have a lot of friendly banter about handicaps racing such a disparate group of boats (j/80 certainly stretches the definition of cruiser - we do sleep on it on passage races - but its like camping without a tent) - but really for me it's about getting out on the water and having some fun racing in good company. I thought about doing a few evening races this year with hisc - but the main stumbling blocks were leaving work early on thursday afternoon to get down to the boat - which is not a deal breaker - but the real problem is crew - or lack of.

2 of us can make it but finding at least A.N other or more to be able to manage the kite effectively is going to be hard work for us on a thursday evening. We can sort of manage it in light winds with 2 of us - but it proves too challenging in a breeze and our vprs rating assumes we have that big blue thing operational when racing. If we could race our white sails rating - 2 of us would be no problem. That said i might give an evening race a try next year irrespective of rating stuff for the crack of it - our level of ability means we are not going to be troubling the americas cup selection team in any case.

i did race in the hisc barts bash cruiser race which was the bang and go back format - it was good for another boat which is not always at the front to get the win as it was equally fun to race back through the fleet. I am not sure i would want that type of racing all the time - but it made a change. As mentioned before - tides locally would probably make pursuit racing a challenge. I am planning to enter the Nab trophy race you organise this weekend - only 3 (210kg) of us so with a boat with a sail plan optimised for 12 knots and 350kg crew weight and no capability to reef on the race main (have another sail with reefs but not to hand) - if there are any crew available this weekend (any level of ability welcome!) - we are happy to get the beers in for any crew who fancy a sail this sunday!

Hayling - i will have a go at some evening racing next year - interested in any ideas you may have on how to get some of the keen dinghy sailors from the club to come and have a go crewing - if i can get access to more crew - i will sail in more or less any hisc cruiser race which does not clash with ccrc!

 

[Hayling]

Hi, J80,
Many thanks for your reply.
Looks like at least Saturdays race will be cancelled due to the storm but Sunday should be OK.
We dropped VPRS because you had to pay £20 and complete a form in advance, not just turn up
on the day as you can in NHC.
And we introduced Bang and About to provide as level a playing field as we could think of, a race where
half way through the last shall be first and the first last! It has proved to be fun and my feedback is
that amongst us happy go lucky amateurs out for a sail with the lads in midweek, it is fun enough to continue.
Pursuit racing would be far too complicated to arrange with entrants unknown till the day and those serious pot hunters use the races for crew training and carry of the trophies, whereas we are no trouble to the engravers.
Regarding crew, I think there will be plenty of locals who will do anything for a pint, i enjoy taking non sailors out to give them a taste and often end up putting them on the helm and doing the kite myself! In at the deep end!
Try the club website or get racing face book page.
In the absence of any better ideas, Bang and About does at least mix it up a bit, whereas NHC sees the same old winners win, great If you like winning, not so good If you like sailing.

 

[j80]

Hi, J80,
Regarding crew, I think there will be plenty of locals who will do anything for a pint, i enjoy taking non sailors out to give them a taste and often end up putting them on the helm and doing the kite myself! In at the deep end! .

Fair play! I take your point - will put a notice up on club noticeboard. Looking at the forecast we won't do saturday in any case - but definitely plan to come out on sunday

 

[xyachtdave]

We've introduced a 'Single and Double Handed Series' which has been very popular for getting people out, particularly non racers.

Only issue for us was when 1 or 2 fully crewed boats have asked to race too for 'practice' and not be in results etc, which sounds great in principle, until they start aggressively luffing someone up who's on their own and managed to get their kite up. The single/double handed competitors are aware of the limitations of the other lightly crewed boats and it's all been very gentlemanly.

The arguments over handicap do whoosh over my head now, nobody seems happy even when the win! IRC if you're serious of course but if you're trying to get some non racing cruisers out to boost numbers on an evening/series that ain't happening.

A boat that has won a lot here has a set of sails that cost more than some of the other competitors boats, it is sailed above average/ok but not exceptional.

I can see why numbers are dwindling when it turns into a wallet waving competition.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I think the varying h/cap of NHC is supposed to overcome the ‘wallet waving’ fraternity, whether it does I’m not sure.
It is the wallet waving that is partly responsible for the lack of enthusiasm of the average club sailor to join in the club races.

 

[lw395]

I think the varying h/cap of NHC is supposed to overcome the ‘wallet waving’ fraternity, whether it does I’m not sure.
It is the wallet waving that is partly responsible for the lack of enthusiasm of the average club sailor to join in the club races.

It can be the other way.
You need decent, well sailed boats to be enjoyable to race against. That's what brings people back time after time. The regulars usually make it to the top third of the fleet, when the regulars get bored because there is nobody any good to race against, they stop coming.
On a sunny day in the winter, any race is great, just to get out there.
But in the summer people get more picky.
Personally I find if I'm winning too often I start to want to find better people to race against.
Your club sailors need good people to learn from.
It's easy to dismiss the good sailors with well equipped boats a 'wallet wavers' but very often most clubs have older, very experience racers spending quite carefully.
The real wallet wavers are usually not very good, all the gear, no idea.

The trick is to race against comparable people, in comparable boats. To me that means no beginners or olympians, not racing boats so much faster or slower they're not on the same leg of the course, not racing 2 up against full crews.

It costs most people money to leave work early to race on an evening, they want value for that, which usually means quality.

Converting ordinary club cruising sailors into regular racers is a dead horse I gave up flogging last century.
If people want to race little traingles around the harbour, they'l buy a dinghy or an XOD. Most of them have bought something with a bog and cooker as a conscious choice not to race.
Some of the rest of us have a yacht to go places in and a dinghy for the triangles around the bay.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I just don’t have the enthusiasm for constructing a full reply to lw395 so will just make a couple of points.
1. I don’t care if the cruising sailors ever become proficient racers or not, the object of the exercise is to have a bit of fun and get them on the water for the occasional club race. We have a couple of traditional races, apart from our regatta, that every year we get a sizeable number of our cruising members entering for the fun of it, and the only way of running it is to use a handicap system. Over the years winners have included Fulmar’s, Sadler’s. 25 & 29, Invicta 26 and one year a Seawych.
2. Smaller clubs such as ours that are relatively isolated just don’t have the numbers of boats to race against comparable boats, O.K. we have 3 Fulmars in the harbour, but we only have 35 yachts in total, the rest of the boats are day fishers etc. so if we want to race we have to handicap, we do race against our nearest club, but their spread of boats is similar so again handicapping is essential.
3. We don’t race in triangles around the harbour, all our cruiser races are offshore, our harbour is just about big enough to race a few dinghy’s around in the Winter when there are no boats moored, so we use a combination of offshore marks for our courses or passage races to other harbours for the longer weekend ones.
4. There will always be those who are only interested in racing, and those who only cruise, but there are a lot of mid way sailors who enjoy both, and will join in the racing for the fun of it and be over the moon if they get a 2nd or 3rd let alone a 1st, not by spending a fortune on kevlar sails etc. but by simply using their skill in handling their boats and understanding the tidal flows and using every breath of wind to their advantage.
So much for just making a simple points, but going back to the OP going down the route suggest by lw395 might be OK for clubs based in heaviy populated sailing areas where there might be 100’s or 1000’s of boats in a confined area, but in the more remote harbours and smaller clubs it would hasten the demise in racing rather than encourage it.

 

[lw395]

I just don’t have the enthusiasm for constructing a full reply to lw395 so will just make a couple of points.
1. I don’t care if the cruising sailors ever become proficient racers or not, the object of the exercise is to have a bit of fun and get them on the water for the occasional club race. We have a couple of traditional races, apart from our regatta, that every year we get a sizeable number of our cruising members entering for the fun of it, and the only way of running it is to use a handicap system. Over the years winners have included Fulmar’s, Sadler’s. 25 & 29, Invicta 26 and one year a Seawych.
2. Smaller clubs such as ours that are relatively isolated just don’t have the numbers of boats to race against comparable boats, O.K. we have 3 Fulmars in the harbour, but we only have 35 yachts in total, the rest of the boats are day fishers etc. so if we want to race we have to handicap, we do race against our nearest club, but their spread of boats is similar so again handicapping is essential.
3. We don’t race in triangles around the harbour, all our cruiser races are offshore, our harbour is just about big enough to race a few dinghy’s around in the Winter when there are no boats moored, so we use a combination of offshore marks for our courses or passage races to other harbours for the longer weekend ones.
4. There will always be those who are only interested in racing, and those who only cruise, but there are a lot of mid way sailors who enjoy both, and will join in the racing for the fun of it and be over the moon if they get a 2nd or 3rd let alone a 1st, not by spending a fortune on kevlar sails etc. but by simply using their skill in handling their boats and understanding the tidal flows and using every breath of wind to their advantage.
So much for just making a simple points, but going back to the OP going down the route suggest by lw395 might be OK for clubs based in heaviy populated sailing areas where there might be 100’s or 1000’s of boats in a confined area, but in the more remote harbours and smaller clubs it would hasten the demise in racing rather than encourage it.

But this thread wasn't really about you was it?

 

[Praxinoscope]

But this thread wasn't really about you was it?

Err no, but it was about how to get more members involved in racing. Me? I used to race regularly weekends and evenings, but now I do a lot more cruising and just enter the odd race for the fun of it, so I’m now one of those who join in to make up the numbers, don’t spend a fortune on getting my boat set up for racing, but still once in a while I still win the odd race.

 

[lw395]

The point is, around Hayling, there is a great deal of choice.
Within a short drive (or maybe RIB ride) we have the Solent clubs, the Chi Harbour clubs, the IoW etc.
People who want to race can take their pick.
Mostly there seems to be a 'flight to quality'.
If you're making the effort to go racing, it's better to support the good stuff that's already happening.

It's a different situation than places where there's nothing decent going in within a sensible distance.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Naturally, the situation is different in high density areas compared to those like ours which are fairly spartan, but this doesn’t necessarily affect the quality of racing.
One thing that shouldn’t be overlooked is ensuring the compentence of the OOD and race control, if competitors see errors in race control, poor planning or indifferent courses being set, they will drift away. Nothing worse than hammering away on the water when you see that those running the race aren’t doing the job.

 

[bobgarrett]

There are plenty of reasons why cruiser owners are not attracted to racing which include those mentioned in this discussion such as different handicap systems; membership and participation costs; competing with dedicated racers and race-equipped yachts, boring courses etc.

Maybe there is not enough emphasis on the other benefits of cruiser racing on the social side: among the crew and between the crews as well as afterwards when you arrive somewhere which has already been booked for you. There is also the advantage of seeing how small changes in yacht handling can make you sail much faster. All this can make it great fun.

However, a big concern for those who have not raced before is a fear of not knowing what you need to know and doing the wrong thing in close proximity of other yachts. Often you can only get this through experience; perhaps crewing with others. That was why a club already mentioned in this thread set up a seminar to introduce cruiser owners to racing. It was popular this year and we plan to run it again in 2019.
https://www.ccrc.co.uk/seminar-interest/

 

[Praxinoscope]

Even in a small club such as ours skippers are often looking for crew to race, and this is one of the best ways to learn the ropes, but shore-based race evenings are worth holding, it’s at these that the basic racing rules are learned additionally they can be used to bring on inexperienced race officers.
Usually it’s not essential to know off by heart the full rules of racing, unless you really are competing at the top end of the sport, most club racing relies upon you knowing the basics such as starting proceedure, when you have the right of way what to do if you touch a mark and things like this.

 

[Chris 249]

I very much doubt that your comments are meant seriously - they certainly are drivel.

If you wish to compete sailor vs sailor then the only way to go is one design with very strict controls on equipment. Anything other than that brings boat design and budget into the competition.

IRC being a fixed handicap based on design parameters is vulnerable to clever designers and to deep pockets, and both. Even without that, like other handicap systems it wont balance performance for every state of tide and wind. A boat at .9 wont compete on even terms in tidal waters with one on 1.05.

NHC takes a design based handicap ( drawn up with help from the RORC) and adjusts it for performance. The adjustment is automatic and so cant be fiddled by the RO to favour pals, and its clever enough not to be swayed by extreme performances. The adjustment is just what should have been done with PY though many clubs like my own didnt bother. Its like a golf handicap, and whilst suddenly turning up mid series with a set of new carbon sails might improve the performance of your old Westerly, the advantage wont last for long. A good system for clubs where the majority want Corinthian racing. At my own club running NHC we regularly get boats coming in within a second or two of each other on corrected time, so there is real incentive to improve.

Its a free country. You take your own choice of which system you sail for the most fun.

From personal experience, what happens with an NHC type handicap in the long run is often that the people with small boats and budgets who sail well get sick of getting beaten on handicap by bigger, more expensive but poorly sailed boats. Under a NHC type system you could have a Sonata that beats an Impala every week across the line, so that soon even when the Impala finishes 10 minutes behind its little sister, the bigger boat can win on rating. That's very frustrating.

There's also little incentive to improve because even if the Snottie team (who could be very good to start with) worked really hard to improve and got their boat going 3 minutes faster, soon the handicapper will catch up to them and they'll be expected to beat the Impala home by 13 minutes. And on some days the guys on the Impala may actually put down their beers and sail their boat at 90% of its capacity so that even when the Sonata has been sailing at 110%, the Impala can finish minutes behind and win.