dubois
New Member
Can anyone recommend a good instructor for close quarters handling of a long keeled yacht in the Portsmouth area?
Thanks
Thanks
close quarters handling
- Thread starter dubois
- Start date
DaveS
Well-Known Member
Do long keeled yachts handle differently near Portsmouth? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
jeremyshaw
Well-Known Member
Southern Sailing School (www.southern.co.uk) is a highly respected school with excellent instructors. They offer own boat tuition.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Do you really need an instructor? It's not rocket science - you just need to practice lots in differing wind conditions. Hang lots of fenders out if you're worried. Many marinas are happy at quiet mid-week times to let people wander about trying pontoon mooring. Prop walk is one of the most important bits to understand. And, yes, I do have a long-keeled yacht.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Only people who have tried manoevring a long keel yacht can appreciate how difficult they really can be.
Some will go astern after a fashion and some just will not steer going astern.
I suggest going on your own boat website or try to contact other owners for help. I think few instructors have much experience unless they own their own long keeler.
Some will go astern after a fashion and some just will not steer going astern.
I suggest going on your own boat website or try to contact other owners for help. I think few instructors have much experience unless they own their own long keeler.
Matrosen
Well-Known Member
I've got a long keeler.
The main trick for going astern in the direction that YOU want is, lots of power to get her moving then into neutral to steer her, another burst of power and neutral again and so on.
The main trick for going astern in the direction that YOU want is, lots of power to get her moving then into neutral to steer her, another burst of power and neutral again and so on.
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
I would agree with the other opinions above re just going out and doing it yourself.
We have a long keel Challenger 35 with a cutaway forefoot. She tends to have a mind of her own in astern, and the cutaway forefoot means that the bow 'blows off' very easily if the wind catches it on one side.
May I suggest some things for you to try?
I was doing these with a friend in Portsmouth harbour recently, where we were getting to know the characteristics of her little bilge keeler. It doesnt matter if your boat is long keel, bilge, fin, or centreboard, it is still useful to try as many different types of manoeuveres as possible.
1) In open water, perhaps with empty mooring buoys around to help give you an idea of scale, try (under power) doing a tight circle hard over to port and starboard, in ahead and astern, and see how she behaves - does she do a tighter circle or is she 'easier' to handle one way (eg to port) compared to the other? You will find that she will probably tend to have a preference about which way she wants to go in astern (due to 'prop walk'), and you can then use this to your advantage when 'kicking the stern in' when berthing, or coming off a pontoon.
I find that with our boat, the way to get her to go astern is to use short bursts of power, rather than continuous - if she is in continuous slow astern she will usually go where she wants to go, even if the helm is applied the opposite way.
2) Try motoring up to a mooring buoy with different combinations of wind and tide, and see how these combinations affect your boat. Try the same, but going astern, as if you were going to pick up the mooring buoy from the cockpit.
3) Find a big empty pontoon, and practice coming alongside it, and getting off. Ideally find a variety of pontoons, where you are being blown on and off the pontoon, with and against the tide. Experiment with using a spring line when berthing and getting off a pontoon - spring lines are so versatile! (Tom Cunliffe is a big fan of using springs).
4) Once you are happy with the above, then perhaps try bringing your boat into a berth in a marina.
Good luck!
(I have never had to bring our boat into a marina - she lives on a mooring, and if we go anywhere, we always anchor out - but we have to get into the lift out dock once a year for annual haul out, and we usually manage it OK)
We have a long keel Challenger 35 with a cutaway forefoot. She tends to have a mind of her own in astern, and the cutaway forefoot means that the bow 'blows off' very easily if the wind catches it on one side.
May I suggest some things for you to try?
I was doing these with a friend in Portsmouth harbour recently, where we were getting to know the characteristics of her little bilge keeler. It doesnt matter if your boat is long keel, bilge, fin, or centreboard, it is still useful to try as many different types of manoeuveres as possible.
1) In open water, perhaps with empty mooring buoys around to help give you an idea of scale, try (under power) doing a tight circle hard over to port and starboard, in ahead and astern, and see how she behaves - does she do a tighter circle or is she 'easier' to handle one way (eg to port) compared to the other? You will find that she will probably tend to have a preference about which way she wants to go in astern (due to 'prop walk'), and you can then use this to your advantage when 'kicking the stern in' when berthing, or coming off a pontoon.
I find that with our boat, the way to get her to go astern is to use short bursts of power, rather than continuous - if she is in continuous slow astern she will usually go where she wants to go, even if the helm is applied the opposite way.
2) Try motoring up to a mooring buoy with different combinations of wind and tide, and see how these combinations affect your boat. Try the same, but going astern, as if you were going to pick up the mooring buoy from the cockpit.
3) Find a big empty pontoon, and practice coming alongside it, and getting off. Ideally find a variety of pontoons, where you are being blown on and off the pontoon, with and against the tide. Experiment with using a spring line when berthing and getting off a pontoon - spring lines are so versatile! (Tom Cunliffe is a big fan of using springs).
4) Once you are happy with the above, then perhaps try bringing your boat into a berth in a marina.
Good luck!
(I have never had to bring our boat into a marina - she lives on a mooring, and if we go anywhere, we always anchor out - but we have to get into the lift out dock once a year for annual haul out, and we usually manage it OK)
islander4
Member
Not an expert, but here are last three months learning curve: Without a bowthruster I find steering long keel astern not really feasible in a marina - needing a fair bit of speed and stern way before the rudder bites (requiring more space than marinas have), and even then it is easily negated by wind / current. As mentioned above, prop walk can be relied on - i.e get the bow pointing same side as propwalk takes her then prop walk should give stern way in a shallow arc - vary amount of propwalk by astern revs.
I tried lots of manouevres without bowthruster and found combination of propwalk and tight forward turns (switching fwd and astern etc.) gave best results - meaning I was able to turn in own length and thus could avoid stern manouevres. This means that a) for long astern manoeuvres I steer with bowthruster, b) I try to avoid long stern manouevres and turn instead, c) I spend lots of time standing and thinking before engaging gear, and d) bowthruster was a great investment, if mainly for peace of mind - especially when reversing out of narrow berths into a tight channel. Alternative to bowthruster would have been lots of seamanlike work with warps as described in books etcc. - but with single / shorthanded sailing that is sometimes not easy.
I tried lots of manouevres without bowthruster and found combination of propwalk and tight forward turns (switching fwd and astern etc.) gave best results - meaning I was able to turn in own length and thus could avoid stern manouevres. This means that a) for long astern manoeuvres I steer with bowthruster, b) I try to avoid long stern manouevres and turn instead, c) I spend lots of time standing and thinking before engaging gear, and d) bowthruster was a great investment, if mainly for peace of mind - especially when reversing out of narrow berths into a tight channel. Alternative to bowthruster would have been lots of seamanlike work with warps as described in books etcc. - but with single / shorthanded sailing that is sometimes not easy.
starboard
Well-Known Member
Try Ladbrokes or William Hills
Paul. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Paul. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
alldownwind
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Southern Sailing School (www.southern.co.uk) is a highly respected school with excellent instructors. They offer own boat tuition.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. Spend a few quid with them, you'll learn a great deal in a short time. Great outfit, led of course by the great Capt. John.
Southern Sailing School (www.southern.co.uk) is a highly respected school with excellent instructors. They offer own boat tuition.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. Spend a few quid with them, you'll learn a great deal in a short time. Great outfit, led of course by the great Capt. John.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Try that on a Rustler 36!!
Please believe me when I say that while there are some techniques that work for some long keelers for some only a bow thruster works.
Please believe me when I say that while there are some techniques that work for some long keelers for some only a bow thruster works.
G
Guest
Guest
Best thing is to accept the fact that you're probably not going to be able to turn the stern against the propwalk and/or away from the wind unless you're really doing a large number of knots astern. Doing a large number of knots astern in a marina in a long keeler is probably not a good idea.
So don't try to turn the stern away from the wind and against propwalk - just work out ways in any given situation ways of using the effects of (1) propwalk (2) the fact that the stern will try to weathercock into the wind, and (3) the fact that you can turn a yacht sharply without moving forward significantly if she's standing still by putting the tiller across and giving a short hard burst of ahead, to manouevre in or out of the situation. If 1 + 2 + 3 don't add up, then look for ways of using a warp + wind and/or tide to spin her round the way you want to go.
So don't try to turn the stern away from the wind and against propwalk - just work out ways in any given situation ways of using the effects of (1) propwalk (2) the fact that the stern will try to weathercock into the wind, and (3) the fact that you can turn a yacht sharply without moving forward significantly if she's standing still by putting the tiller across and giving a short hard burst of ahead, to manouevre in or out of the situation. If 1 + 2 + 3 don't add up, then look for ways of using a warp + wind and/or tide to spin her round the way you want to go.
damo
Well-Known Member
I concur with the advice above. The main thing is to get to know how she handles when you have plenty of room, and practice.
I find that wind direction is absolutely crucial, and if it isn't completely calm I won't go in somewhere I can't be certain of getting out of - that's one reason why I rarely use marinas other than the one I berth in! If I do I request an easy access berth, because I am usually single-handed.
I find that wind direction is absolutely crucial, and if it isn't completely calm I won't go in somewhere I can't be certain of getting out of - that's one reason why I rarely use marinas other than the one I berth in! If I do I request an easy access berth, because I am usually single-handed.
DeeGee
Well-Known Member
Depends what sort of boat. Your best bet with YOUR boat, whatever it is, is to get out and explore its capability in no-current, breezy conditions first and then with some current. One thing is likely, whatever the boat, you will never be able to compete with a modern AWB and will always need to spend a long 5 mins thinking about how you are going to do things. A first-class instructor will certainly help, as he will put you and the boat through the variables without you banging into someone. And do it on your own boat.
Long keelers will generally swing their stern up-wind or bows blow off, pivoting about the middle-ish and are unlikely to get their bows back into the wind in anything of a breeze, how much breeze is depending on the boat, due to not enough room to get the speed up.
Long keelers will generally swing their stern up-wind or bows blow off, pivoting about the middle-ish and are unlikely to get their bows back into the wind in anything of a breeze, how much breeze is depending on the boat, due to not enough room to get the speed up.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of what's been said before.
My advice is to seek help from experienced people with the same class of boat.
About 10 years ago, when I first tried to manouvre a Twister astern I found it very difficult. I paid a professional instructor to come out for a day and teach me how to handle her, especially going astern. I learnt a lot of useful information from him about all general aspects of boat handling but what I really wanted was for him to show me how to back the boat into a marina berth. To give him credit, he tried his best and, after a lot of experiments, eventually decided that the only way was to build up as much speed as possible astern in the hope that the rudder would take effect. We ended up charging into a marina [fortunately it was winter and there weren't many other boats in there] in full astern at 3 to 4 knots and, when he realised that it wasn't going to work, he put her into full-ahead, but it was too late and her transom rode up onto the pontoon before she stopped. The poor man was horribly embarrassed but fortunately it didn't seem to do the boat any harm!
After that I did what I should have done in the first place, i.e. ask other Twister owners for advice. I found out that they all have problems under certain conditions and do the best they can with warps or by trying to avoid difficult situations in the first place
The best bits of advice I have had are:
"You need plenty of fenders and a sense of humour"
"See what the boat wants to do and try to go along with it", e.g. if she turns more easily one way than the other, then go that way if you possibly can.
Also get yourself a good boathook, one of those big galvanised steel jobs. You'll need to sharpen the point up a bit so that it really digs into shiny gelcoats instead of skidding off.
My advice is to seek help from experienced people with the same class of boat.
About 10 years ago, when I first tried to manouvre a Twister astern I found it very difficult. I paid a professional instructor to come out for a day and teach me how to handle her, especially going astern. I learnt a lot of useful information from him about all general aspects of boat handling but what I really wanted was for him to show me how to back the boat into a marina berth. To give him credit, he tried his best and, after a lot of experiments, eventually decided that the only way was to build up as much speed as possible astern in the hope that the rudder would take effect. We ended up charging into a marina [fortunately it was winter and there weren't many other boats in there] in full astern at 3 to 4 knots and, when he realised that it wasn't going to work, he put her into full-ahead, but it was too late and her transom rode up onto the pontoon before she stopped. The poor man was horribly embarrassed but fortunately it didn't seem to do the boat any harm!
After that I did what I should have done in the first place, i.e. ask other Twister owners for advice. I found out that they all have problems under certain conditions and do the best they can with warps or by trying to avoid difficult situations in the first place
The best bits of advice I have had are:
"You need plenty of fenders and a sense of humour"
"See what the boat wants to do and try to go along with it", e.g. if she turns more easily one way than the other, then go that way if you possibly can.
Also get yourself a good boathook, one of those big galvanised steel jobs. You'll need to sharpen the point up a bit so that it really digs into shiny gelcoats instead of skidding off.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
..."See what the boat wants to do and try to go along with it", e.g. if she turns more easily one way than the other, then go that way if you possibly can...
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the best bit of advice - sometimes the ideal would seem to turn 90 degrees one way, but you will find the achievable is to do 270 degrees in the opposite direction. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
..."See what the boat wants to do and try to go along with it", e.g. if she turns more easily one way than the other, then go that way if you possibly can...
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the best bit of advice - sometimes the ideal would seem to turn 90 degrees one way, but you will find the achievable is to do 270 degrees in the opposite direction. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Haven't-a-Clue
Well-Known Member
I probably shouldn't be here ( being a mobo'r) but I gotta ask: WHAT is propwalk? I simply have to know!
Mudplugger
Well-Known Member
Depends upon whether the prop is right handed or left handed.... as you engage gear the yacht will kick either left or right! can be very useful!! HTH
FullCircle
Well-Known Member
forumite flaming should be along any minute, he is an expert on own boat tuition.... hope you havent got a bowthruster though.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
The prop acts as a paddle wheel "walking" the stern one way or the other depending on direction of rotation. More prevalent at slow speeds before the rudder has enough flow to bite and is more pronounced with the bigger three bladed props.
