Close hauled with a a furled genoa ....

Lizzie_B said:
from some of the answers I'm seeing, I wonder if a big deciding factor is if your boat is masthead or fractional rig. The ones I've used it on are masthead, and it was well worth doing with the removeable inner from masthead to stemhead.
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Yep, we are a mast head rig and already have a strong point on the anchor roller plate for the purpose. We also have a spare genoa halyard which was intended to be used as a spare forestay but the one time I tried it with the storm jib it was too saggy, even having winched it bar tight before hoisting.
 
MoodyNick said:
The wind instrument was taken down, serviced, refitted earlier in the year and I am comfortable it is within a couple of degrees of centre.

In general, it is good to know from all the answers that the angles I am seeing are not bad at all.
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Nick a couple of degrees out one side would give you the difference you saw because it would skew the reading by 4 degs, not that it matters a whole lot.

Your other replies agree with me that you would only set up an extra stay, plus sail and sheets before leaving. You are obviously less lazy that me if you would do that for a short trip though! I would look at it thinking how long it takes to set up, then remove it and then what do I do with the soaked salt water wet staysail...

I can well see the need to have some kind of set up for a storm jib but to do the job properly with a view to getting better performance with a staysail needs more than a simple detachable stay IMO. In our case we have extra sheet lead tracks on the forward coachroof so we can sheet the staysail inside the shrouds. These sheets go through dedicated coachroof clutches onto coachroof winches that also handle all the slab reefs etc. Our detachable stay goes to the upper spreaders so running backstays are needed to give support. With a simple storm jib stay however it could be attached to just below the masthead and not need the runners and for this use you could probably get away with the usual sheet leads as well, maybe re-routed inside the rig.

Is the problem really with your existing genoa? If this is too big (ours is 135% I think) or not a good cut or has stretched it will really show up when rolled down. A big sail like yours and ours is very similar will carry huge loads and any normal Dacron will stretch too much, so something a bit more high tech is needed. In our case we stuck to a woven Dacron but a special material called Hydranet with Dyneema/Spectra woven in at about 5mm intervals in both warp and weft directions, creating a mesh of high load carrying low stretch fibres. Laminate sails would be good too, very low stretch, but can suffer mildew over time and look very tatty.
 
MoodyNick said:
Our late friend tome used to swear by this arrangement and used it to good effect. ..........

My concern is that if I go to the hassle and expense of a new stay and sail, can I expect to point any higher than with a furled genoa?
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Nick, I've just spent a week or so on a friends 406 which is what Tome had? I can well see what Tom meant. With 25kts+ wind over the deck, this arrangement works extremely well and, pointing at 30 degrees, she whacked 2 boche, 2 frogs and, even, a gullet - averaging 6 to 7 kts all the way .. lovely boats these old Oysters. The furled gennie couldn't point higher than 45 degrees and was very hard to control in gusts over 30kts.

Interestingly, keeping tension in the luff of the staysail was as difficult on the 406 as it is on mine. It tended to crease at each piston hank but then it was blowing quite hard ...
 
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MoodyNick said:
That's good to know but what to you hang on it?
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I have a great Kemp n3 jib made especially for my setup.Before I used a very old nº4 meant for my IOR 30 footer.My boat has a 3/4 rig and will remain perfectly balanced with the jib .I use the genoa tracks without problems.
 
ParaHandy said:
Nick, I've just spent a week or so on a friends 406 which is what Tome had? I can well see what Tom meant. With 25kts+ wind over the deck, this arrangement works extremely well and, pointing at 30 degrees, she whacked 2 boche, 2 frogs and, even, a gullet - averaging 6 to 7 kts all the way .. lovely boats these old Oysters. The furled gennie couldn't point higher than 45 degrees and was very hard to control in gusts over 30kts.

Interestingly, keeping tension in the luff of the staysail was as difficult on the 406 as it is on mine. It tended to crease at each piston hank but then it was blowing quite hard ...
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Tome had a heritage 37 I think.
 
Used to race boats with a wardrobe of genoas. To my mind the best shape for a heavy weather foresail was a blade, with a long luff, short foot and leech and high cut foot, putting the clew quite high. Consequently the sheet lead needed to come well back to get a sheeting angle that bisected (more or less) the luff. Not only did the sail pull and point like a good'un, it was also delightfully easy to tack, compared with a more conventional shape, coz there was barely any winding to do.
 
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Rule of thumb for a #4. 85% of forestay length and 85% of J. Decent luff length for pointing and highish clew so it won't scoop up the water, say gooseneck height.
 
I have the same issue. The boat has a second clip on forestay and I now need a relatively high cut and flat working jib that sets like a board and allows me to point up rather than seeing the boat sag off just to keep a partly rolled genoa full.
 
I've read all this with much interest, and have a similar but slightly different question - hope this isn't considered thread-jacking!

My boat has a sort of cutter rig, although it is actually more like the setups described here. It is a typical 70s masthead rig with small main and huge furling genoa, but also has a fixed inner forestay which hits the deck a foot or two back from the main forestay. This carries a flat, high cut working jib, also with roller furling, and complete with its own sheet cars and winches. This gives you a choice of two sails, which would not work effectively together unlike a proper cutter.

My question then, is does anyone have any helpful suggestions on how to tack the large genoa around the fixed inner stay? I can just about get it round, usually, but is quite a handful. I find it gybes a little better as the sail is not pushed against the stay, and of course it is possible to furl and reopen it on the opposite tack. But this is a pain and I generally end up just relying on the jib unless it is very light airs or I will be on a tack for an extended period.

Happy to hear any suggestions

Thanks
Neil
 
Closehauled with furling genoa....

Some 4 years ago I purchased a second-hand furling 120% masthead genoa to replace my torn one.
I hoisted the sail fully and noticed that it had 2 cringles ,one in the luff and the other in the leach. I couldn't work out how it could be used to reduce the area at the time ;obviously it had to be kind of slab reef and alternative clew and tack positions but I never tried it. I later had the sail re-cut to a blade like shape to full masthead height.This is my current sail for most conditions and I never furl it as a reef, I reef the main twice if necessary and leave as is.
Pointing when close hauled is pretty good except in very light airs, probably about 35-40 degrees I would guess, and my boat is a fin keeler.
 
bottom of the mast to a double block

I use a high cut Yankee from my inner fore-stay which is sheeted back through a turning block at the aft quarter. I've set mine up to use a snatch block from the sheet to the kicking strap, which has a quick release shackle onto the boom, to get the sheet further inboard.
 
LadyInBed said:
I use a high cut Yankee from my inner fore-stay which is sheeted back through a turning block at the aft quarter. I've set mine up to use a snatch block from the sheet to the kicking strap, which has a quick release shackle onto the boom, to get the sheet further inboard.
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Based on your foot note, it doesnt work too well!:)
 
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