Close hauled with a a furled genoa ....

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BlueSkyNick

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..... frustrates the hell out of me, because we have to sail further off the wind. So much so that I am pushing the temp inner forestay and No.3 or 4 jib to to the top of the shopping list. Our late friend tome used to swear by this arrangement and used it to good effect.

At least with the temp stay, I will be able to use the storm jib which is as new as it was on the day the boat was first launched.

Today we did Bembridge to Lymington in a steady F5. Overly reefed for SWMBO and dog reasons, managing only about 40degs AWA on port tack, 35 degs on starboard because of the direction of the furl. Under full sail I am happy with 30degs, pinching at 28.

My concern is that if I go to the hassle and expense of a new stay and sail, can I expect to point any higher than with a furled genoa?
 
Hi Nick,

I had a No. 4 in inner forestay. I'm not sure I really pointed much higher than a full genoa because the sheet leads still came from the same track (a high aspect smaller sail with no overlap needs to be sheeted much closer to the mast). However the rig did just feel right and seem to make better VMG. I remember doing 18 hours upwind against a force 6 from Falmouth to L'Aberwrach and it was a great relief to have the no.4. Would have hated to have done it with a furled 150% genoa.

It was also reassuring to know you had a back forestay in case of other problems.
 
I sheeted between the cap shrouds and the inners, which was as inboard as I could get. Never got round to trying barber haulers, which just seem like a lot of faff - just want you don't need when it is blowy.

Having the no.4 on my M44 is what convinced me to get dedicated inner forestay setup on my RM.
 
How bout a line from the bottom of the mast to a double block.... both sheets run through double block... line fixed at correct length to haul in the sheet lines to the correct angle on either tack....
 
Nick firstly I'm assuming the wind angles you mention are to the apparent wind. Secondly you attribute the worse angle on one tack to the direction of the furled sail. Now to my mind the apparent wind angles quoted are not unusual for a beamy cruising boat like yours so for a part furled sail aren't bad at all. Also different angles from port to starboard could be caused by other factors like the wind direction isn't set dead centre or the seastate made a difference on one tack or the tide on one tack gave a different apparent wind. In practice you averaged 37.5 degs to the apparent wind in a choppy Solent wind over tide (I guess), actually not bad for a chunky Moody and I'm not being rude...

For comparison, we have a sleek cruiser/racer hull based on a French Admiral's Cup Team boat, and with highish tech sails and go fast gubbins. We go upwind at 28 degs apparent as an optimum but in the conditions you describe that would be nearer 33/35 degs - not too far off what you achieved. For sure in a sea we would free off to get the power to get through the waves.

Now we too have a separate and detachable inner forestay, a proper job to the upper spreaders and backed up with running backstays. We have a separate track and sheeting set up for this to be used with either the staysail or the storm jib. Using the staysail and a double reefed main she will go upwind in F7 and with the third reef and storm jib in F8 should we be stupid enough to chose to.

However, the realities are somewhat different! We have a roller genoa from Hydranet, Dacron reinforced with woven in Dyneema/Spectra, tri-radial cut and with a padded luff. When rolled there is the odd crease but this sail will still give us what we want because the seastate generally has dictated that we free off a tad anyways.

Then there is the question of when you set up the inner forestay combination. Our boat is set up with all reefing (3 slabs + roller genoa) from the cockpit, so there is no way I'll be getting wet up front at sea to set up the stay or the staysail except in extremis! So then you say well I'd only set it up in harbour before departure - but then if I knew that kind of weather was about I'd be putting up the cockpit conservatory and breaking out the gin and a good book not going to sea! Mid Atlantic or mid Biscay maybe I'd set it up in advance of bad weather and leave it set but for all usual sailing, sorry can't be bothered!

So, we have exactly what you are thinking about and very very rarely use it, not very cost effective at all.
 
I use my temporary forestay everytime I go to windward in stronger winds.Best thing I ever got for the boat,recommend it highly.
 
Had an inner forestay which was detachable via a Pelican Hook + bottle screw arrangement.
For going to windward in heavy weather was the best investment we ever made on that particular boat.

By having it detachable we could have the attachment point right forward so sheeting arrangements remained unchanged and didn't have any of the problems of trying to tack the roller genoa around a fixed forestay.When not in use it attached to a stanchion base to keep it out of the way. Also had the advantage of not requiring any new holes to be drilled in the deck.

As previously mentioned it was also reassuring to have the back up, which we used once when RF jammed. Also useful for hoisting storm jib.
Also as previously mentioned, my impression was that we went faster to windward than with the roller furled genoa rather than pointed any higher, and boat seemed more in 'the groove'.

It is certainly high on the agenda for the current boat to do the same again. I personally thought it an important modification from both a sailing performance and safety point of view which could be achieved at relatively minimal cost.
 
I have a HR with removable inner and 135% furling genoa (Laminated with padded luff). Any more than two small reefs and like most sails it loses its efficiency. The cutter sail on the inner is hanked on, with its own adjustable cars on the track forward of the genoa cars. Its a great combo but does not help me point higher in heavy air its just better for the boat as mentioned earlier. We also have running back stays when we run cutter rigged.
 
A lot depends on the sail. My Contessa 33 had a peach 135% tri radial made from a cruising laminate. It had a rope padded luff. Much, much better than the normal foam which crushes too much. Also, I didn't have UV strips either. Used a sock instead. That sail was still perfect after 18,000 miles and would set well reefed to #4 size. With that boat it payed to hang on to full main as long as possible, reefing away the jib till a mere scrap.

My current boat also has a tri radial laminate genoa. But it has the UV strips and a foam luff. It's a good sail till you reef it and it goes from bad to worse with every turn....
 
Shhet inside the spreaders?

on two of my Moody's I used to have the track at furthest point forward and then lead the sheets inside the rigging when well reefed, made some difference and worth doing for sustained sailing. I had spare sheets so no great hassel to rig. I am not convinced that rigging on an an inner forestay will make a great deal of difference. From memory you are a shoal keel? Try sheeting inside the rigging first. Are you coming West if we ever get a summer?
 
The apparent wind angles don't sound too bad for me in your boat. However, why not simply buy a furling jib and drop the genoa - preferably before you set off if the weather looks a tad breezy? This way you could keep a full, efficient sail in a F4-5, but still be able to reef easily above a F6. You might need to create a sytem to reduce the sheeting angle, but that's fairly simple.

You'll only ever use the inner forestay and storm jib in F8+, and how often are you out in that?
 
My Parents ordered a removable inner forestay and a number 4 on their boat when they bought it in 2004.

It's been used once, because I wanted to see what it looked like.

Otherwise, the laminate genoa rolled to blade size (foam luff etc) seems to set well enough to make the faf involved in setting the inner forestay not seem worth it.

Of course this is on a fractional boat with moderate genoa. Might be different on a masthead boat with a stupidly big genoa.
 
Robin, yes I am talking about apparent winds (see AWA in OP). I decided yesterday to get more scientific about it. Yes there was a bit of chop and a difference sailing more across it (in starboard) than into it (on port). The reason I thought there was a difference due to the furl was that the 'luff' had a full air flow on starboard, whereas on port this seemed to be shadowed by the roll in the sail hence fluttering. I am well prepared to be told this is complete bolleaux !

The wind instrument was taken down, serviced, refitted earlier in the year and I am comfortable it is within a couple of degrees of centre.

In general, it is good to know from all the answers that the angles I am seeing are not bad at all.
 
dk said:
However, why not simply buy a furling jib and drop the genoa - preferably before you set off if the weather looks a tad breezy?
Click to expand...
Basically because the genoa is 63 sq metres and bloody heavy to lug around!

If I go with a temp forestay and smaller sail I would generally plan to rig it before setting off based on a forecast. Ditto storm jib if necessary. On Sunday we stayed in Bembridge until Monday to avoid heading back in F7/8 but all our other friends left and took a pasting all the way !!
 
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Iota said:
on two of my Moody's I used to have the track at furthest point forward and then lead the sheets inside the rigging when well reefed, made some difference and worth doing for sustained sailing. I had spare sheets so no great hassel to rig. I am not convinced that rigging on an an inner forestay will make a great deal of difference. From memory you are a shoal keel? Try sheeting inside the rigging first. Are you coming West if we ever get a summer?
Click to expand...

Thanks Pete, worth trying the no cost option first !! Yes we are a shoal keel.

Not coming west this year, done a week around the CI and planning StVaast&Honfleur week after next.
 
from some of the answers I'm seeing, I wonder if a big deciding factor is if your boat is masthead or fractional rig. The ones I've used it on are masthead, and it was well worth doing with the removeable inner from masthead to stemhead.

It took about a minute to rig and needed no new sheeting arrangements, so in effect no more hassle than doing a headsail change on a boat with conventional hanked headsails.

I guess those that felt it was a lot of hassle to rig so it got rarely used were on fractional boats where I imagine it would be more complicated. FYI even with a new properly padded luff genoa it was still an improvement in speed to windward once conditions required more than a couple of rolls in.
Our boat was always better on one tack than the other, as have been many of the other boats I've sailed on.Never really worked out why. The worst offenders were those where the water tanks were under the saloon settee on one side only.
 
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