Climbers advice - Descenders

rwoofer

rwoofer

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I have never climbed or been involved in climbing, so I borrowed some climbing kit this weekend to try it out on a singlehanded mast ascent. What a revelation! I eventually went up and down 3 times without assistance.

I used a pair of ascenders and a bosun's chair to go both up and down the mast. Coming down is a bit of a PITA with ascenders, but I had to resort to these after testing something called a Petzl Stop just off the ground. I found that this was dangerous, because it was very "grabby" - in other words it held you fast, but as soon as you compressed the lever, you fell really rapidly and on release you came to a sudden stop. Not safe or comfortable.

I think part of the reason could have been my topping lift was slightly undersize (1 or 2mm). Does anyone have any experience of more progressive friction devices? Any recommendations based on experience?
 
You could use a figure 8 or a sticht plate. The former is more gentle. But to attach either device you'll need slack on the halyard your going to use it on.

Personally I use the the ascendeurs to descend and inspect the mast as I go down. But then our mast is fairly tiddly. Also both fig 8s and sticht plates need a hand on the rope to lock them which is a PITA.

BTW are you attaching the halyard your climbing to the foot of the mast? Makes using ascendeurs much easier. Essential in any swell I would have thought.
 
Yes, attached the halyard to the bottom of the mast and tensioned it tight. The original plan was to go up the halyard and then come down the topping lift (loosely attached to the mast foot).

I tested the transfer 3 foot above the deck and that worked OK. Seems such a waste to expend lots of effort coming down!!
 
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Yes, attached the halyard to the bottom of the mast and tensioned it tight. The original plan was to go up the halyard and then come down the topping lift (loosely attached to the mast foot).

I tested the transfer 3 foot above the deck and that worked OK. Seems such a waste to expend lots of effort coming down!!

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Certainly worth using both. I use a backup prussik on one and climb up the other ever since I heard that old hi-tech halyards are prone to snap! Worth bearing in mind that climbing ropes are very elastic which governs the peak stress in the system. I sudden impact on a spectra halyard could produce surprisingly high loads.

I'm impressed that you managed to use a bosuns chair as well. I found it got in the way when I tried it. I imagine it's much more comfortable.
 
What diameter is the rope? the stop is designed for 9-12 mm. The thinner the rope the less options you've got.
 
I use a Petzl Grigri and an Petzl ascender on one halyard for going up and the Grigri for coming down backed up by a Petzl Shunt on the the back up halyard (The shunt is slid up the back up halyard on the way up.
 
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I use a Petzl Grigri and an Petzl ascender on one halyard for going up and the Grigri for coming down backed up by a Petzl Shunt on the the back up halyard (The shunt is slid up the back up halyard on the way up.

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Almost exactly what I do, however I use the ascender and shunt on one rope for going up with the GriGri as back up.
On the descent I use the grigri as the prime control with the shunt as backup. However I use a climbing harness and not a bosun's chair.
 
I use a halyard and topping lift to haul a doubled non-stretch rope (abseil rope - different characteristics to a lead climbing rope), then climb on one half (a petzel croll and jammer) with a backup on the other (a petzel shunt). I then transfer to a figure-of-8 onto the backup line which now becomes the abseil rope, which still has the shunt as a safety backup.

I use a climbing harness (I think Spinlock are now making a mast climbing harness) which is waaay easier than a bosun's chair, and a couple of homemade etriers (tape "stirrups"). Figure-8's are easy to use (and the Italian hitch is a versatile friction knot which can also be abseiled on), but there are several smaller plate devices as well. I sometimes use a grigri for the backup, which can also be used for descending but is risky without a lot of experience. Petzel stops are commonly used by cavers, and is a great tool but again takes a bit more practise.

Best source of info about rope climbing/descending is on the caving sites - those guys are using and developing techniques and equipment all the time.

Don't underestimate the amount of movement of the mast if at sea - it can be violent and very scary. I nearly cra**ed myself going up singlehanded to free a jammed genoa swivel (but I think a lot of that was because there was noone else around), and I've been a professional rope-dangler for a long time /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you get the hang of mastclimbing with ascenders/descenders you will never want to go back to the inefficient, dangerous and time-consuming traditional method of a bosuns chair and winch. I cringe whenever I see it done, knowing that there is a much better way of doing it (rant over /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
 
I initially used an old climbing harness (looks like it's at least 25 years old) which was very uncomfortable and constricting. The bosuns chair was more than acceptable climbing and oh so comfortable to work in. It's a crewsaver chair and the best I have ever used. What seems to make it work well is the fact that it has an integrated belt (separate from the harness attachment points) that allows the seat to slide back whilst climbing and pulls the seat forward as soon as you raise your legs.

Thanks for all the other ideas. It sounds like everyone has their favourite option, which will make it difficult for me to narrow down what will work for me - I'm also not your typical size climber either at 6'6" and 14.5 stone. The last time I went to a climbing shop (Cotswold Camping in Hedge End) they were pretty useless in giving advice, which is why I borrowed some kit to teach myself.
 
You have to be lucky to find shop staff with specialised expert knowledge /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

How about a session with a climbing instructor - a good climbing wall should be able to tailor something specifically for you or a group of mates. Calshot is possibly the best in your area, though I have no personal knowledge of it.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/databases/index.html#walls
 
I've done miles of caving rope. I just climb down with the ascenders, less is more in my belief, keep it simple.

Don't even think about using that tiny topping lift ,you have no way of controlling the feed into the decender, it's too thin. One mistake and you could cut injure your hand, it's not strong enough and the decender isn't designed to work with it
 
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I use a halyard and topping lift to haul a doubled non-stretch rope (abseil rope - different characteristics to a lead climbing rope), then climb on one half (a petzel croll and jammer) with a backup on the other (a petzel shunt).

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some believe only in climbing a rope that goes via a masthead sheave. There has been a case where someone climbed a halyard that was suspended by a block hanging from the mast. Well, that block failed, and he fell to his death.

I do see that in your system there is double redundancy as the climbing rope is attached to two halyards, would you consider that this covers the risk of the halyard-climbing rope attachment failing?
 
Yes - standard practise in rope access work is to double up. This isn't usually possible in caving, where SRT (single rope technique) is the norm.

I put a knot in each halyard, then tie two knots close together in the middle of my ab rope, which are clipped to the halyard knots with a chunky locking carabiner, and hauled aloft. My thinking is that there will be no movement of a loaded rope through a sheave, so reducing the risk of chafe or block failure.

I also don't want to use the halyards for a job they haven't been designed for ie being gripped by camming and friction devices.

There should be no excuse for a climbing rope-halyard attachment failing IMO. Just DON'T use the eye, but make a loop with a suitable knot. When instructing climbing, I always use 2 separate belays, and any toprope pulleys are backed up with a separate runner on the rope. Belt and braces /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I can usually set up the rig and ascend/descend in less than 10 mins.
 
Re: Ascenders

I've used a home-made version. Another trick is to have the croll/ascender strapped on at chest level - your body then stays upright, leaving a hand free for the top ascender, and another for hanging onto the mast or shrouds
 
I tried asking my local climbing centre about this, with aim of getting some training. But the guy (apparently an advanced instructor) appeared very reluctant. Anyone know any climbing instructors who are prepared teach these techniques in a sailing context? (Hopefully London-based (ish))
 
From my own experience of climbing coaching I can see why an instructor may seem reluctant. He is being asked to train a complete novice in an advanced climbing technique, and has no idea of their competence in the environment they wish to use it in.

For example, I have trained a BBC film crew who were going to be swinging around in a tropical forest canopy - none had climbed before, but they would have had an experienced safety supervisor on site. If I had thought they were going off on their own after a morning's practise indoors I wouldn't have done it.

It may sound macabre but most, if not all, instructors have to say to themselves before taking any safety-related decision "Could I justify this decision in Court?"

Try the small ads in the back of a climbing mag for instructors, if googling doesn't help.

(Now, if I was showing a mate how to do it, it wouldn't be a problem - it's not a professional/client situation /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
 
Re: Ascenders

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I've used a home-made version. Another trick is to have the croll/ascender strapped on at chest level - your body then stays upright, leaving a hand free for the top ascender, and another for hanging onto the mast or shrouds

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I use the shunt clipped to harness (as if I was shunting a route) and use a sling on the ascender as a footloop.
 
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