Classic Boat subscription - buyer beware!

Lady Campanula

Lady Campanula

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I tried to set up a gift subscription of 'digital CB' at the Boat Show. The nice people in their wee tent were unable, directing me to try their website when I got home.

So I did.

I ended up outraged, frustrated and spitting fire at 'em. My card details and personal info were taken first, then the cost of the transaction - £29.99 - then a 'transaction complete' page ( see below )


zinio1-1.jpg



No means of directing the subscription to where I wanted, no way of rolling the transaction back, and charged another £6 VAT on top of that advertised - which had not been previously notified!

The confirmatory email indicates I have been enrolled in 'Continuous Service' - which I had scrupulously unticked/refused - regardless of my wishes. That means they can continue to charge my card without further reference to me, whenever they so wish. I cannot stop this from my end.

There is also no clear means of making contact with them by email, to cancel the transaction. The 'gb.zinio.com/help' support address defaults to somewhere obscure in the US, which is a scanty 'FAQs' page - which doesn't bode well.

This is one for Trading Standards, on Monday....

Buyer beware!

:eek:
 
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SteveE said:
If they are based in the US, then why is there VAT? looks like a scam to me, and you should also see the full price before checkout.. Those are the rules...
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The tax is local to the country you live in and not all countries tax digital subscriptions. We had this problem and it should show plus vat but this may be at the final page. Sorry shirt reply on ipho e.

Classic boat is not ours though.
 
This "continuous mandate" seems to be the latest con trick that everyone is trying on. It seems that it puts the onus on you to contact the supplier to stop the continuous agreement (which you never knowingly entered into). I do not think you can contact your bank to stop this which you could with a direct debit!

I have had the same thing with McAfee anti-virus.
 
RichardShead said:
The tax is local to the country you live in and not all countries tax digital subscriptions. We had this problem and it should show plus vat but this may be at the final page. Sorry shirt reply on ipho e.

Classic boat is not ours though.
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Thanks, Richard. All that was understood - especially the last bit! :)

The tax charge was NOT shown on the last page, only on the subscription confirmation email, as shown below.

It seems to me to be a clear and intentional multiple breach of the Distance Selling Regulations here, and I'm in the mood for a squabble. I really dislike cons like this, which are structured to rely on 'inertia'. You'll note that there is no UK VAT number quoted, and the organisation gives a San Francisco address, not a European or UK one.

It looks to me rather like they're 'trousering' the supposed tax charge.

:eek:
 
"I have had the same thing with McAfee anti-virus.!

+1

Very frustrating experience trying to stop/get my money back; that was 2010. They did it again this year!
 
I also have an ongoing problem with Orange. Officially cancelled when I changed internet supplier. Noticed they continued to debit my acct. Told them and the bank. It stopped....for one month, then they continued debiting, still trying to get the several months money back. Not unusual from what I hear.
Local guy was taken to court by them for refusing to pay. They never actually gave him any internet time over several months after he registered. The judge threw it out.
 
Lady C,

I expect you'll be explaining just how impressed you are to the magazine tomorrow at about 09:01, may be worth contacting the card people and getting a new card & number ?

A pain but better than the ********'s getting even more, good luck.

I'm sure if you've got anything from your old job rolling around, they'll be the first to know ! :)
 
The EU passed a law on overseas companies that sell software that the must register for VAT if they sell in Europe. I think they are mad for doing so because I do not believe that the EU has jurisdiction over foreign companies that are not based in the EU. I believe that if you visit a US website you are in effect bring the product into the EU the same was as you would if you were coming in by plane. If on the other hand the vendor opens a shop in the EU he is clearly trading here.

I do not think for one minute they are pocketing the VAT, but I do not believe they need to charge it, but I do believe you are liable for it. However, you should never pay for anything involving subscriptions with a credit card as it is impossible to stop payments. This is a trick used by people selling "Enhancement" drugs.

Direct debit only it is quite safe.
 
Digital contact in Chelsea is:

oliver@chelseamagazines.com

phone: 0207 349 3150

I can find no reference on their site to Distance Selling/cancelling - so a definite breach.

If DSR's aren't made clear then this extends your timescale to cancel from 14 days to 3months & 1week :-)


Sign up for Continuous Service. With Continuous Service, you will be notified and billed automatically at the end of your subscription. You may cancel anytime and receive a refund on undelivered issues.


They are definitely making the cancellation option difficult to process. They have a "refund policy" which states

Refund Policy
Your satisfaction is very important to us. You may cancel subscriptions ordered at Zinio.com at any time. Zinio will provide a refund for all unserved issues to the credit card used for purchase. Single copy purchases will only be refunded in the case that you are unable to download the issue. Please go to Zinio's help page to request a refund.

The link takes you to a help page which doesn't have any obvious route to cancel/refund - it should be as straightforward as creating an order.
It has an FAQ section specific to Account & Subscription - guess what is not there? - how do I cancel.........
 
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Thank you, Steve Clayton.

FWIW, it was not at all clear to me, when providing information on the site as it required, that the subscription-site was US-based. That became evident only when the confirmation email was sent. It is my understanding, also, that several requirements of UK law on Distance Selling have been breached - as Steve Clayton appears to agree.

I made contact, first thing this morning, with someone at Chelsea Magazines, who has properly agreed to look into the matter and respond. I forwarded to her all my communications, detailed my concerns, and do expect a reasonable outcome - which I'll post here.

I am especially wary of 'continuous mandate' exploits, for in recent years I fell foul of the web hosting business '1&1', when I sought to set up a simple website hosted by them. I naively gave information and consent to such a 'mandate'; they failed to provide access to the required service. This was initially a simple admin cockup, easily remedied, but I could persuade no-one at that business to take ownership of the problem.

After a few months of letters and unproductive emails, I instructed my bank to cancel the debit authority. They advised they had complied. My charge card 'time-expired', was changed, and later my bank account changed number.

Almost 2 years later, I was notified by a debt collection agency that they had instructions from '1&1' to recover debt. Apparently, they'd ignored my many letters ( copies kept ), continued to collect ( how? ), and only when my bank account changed did their system flag up a problem to them. Even then, they simply 'farmed out' the matter to this agency up north.

It emerged that '1&1' are not regulated by any body in this country, so none of our processes could be activated. Eventually, I got local Trading Standards to have a go. In the end, I had to drive to Slough, engage the interest of a Council TS officer, who phoned '1&1' to arrange for someone to meet me in their foyer. That was a computer systems guy, who listened, looked at my sheave of letters, and agreed it was their mistake. He went inside, did something to a database, and sent me home.

......2 years of worry, wasted time, and wasted money.

This Zinio issue sounds like a similar 'buyer beware' trap. Which is a pity, for I quite like the magazine, and like to give it as a subscription to FiL and others.
 
I had a return phone call this 5pm from that nice lady at Chelsea Magazines, inquiring whether I'd heard from Zinio.

LC - "Nope. Not a squeak. And I've been here all day. And not an email, neither..."

NL@CM - "They, Zinio, told me they'd spoken with you, they've done what you asked, and that you were now satisfied...."

LC - "Sorry, no. I've not heard from them in any way."

NL@CM - "Oh. I'd better get on to them again. I'll call back in the morning..."

Half an hour passed...

Ring - ring. "This is Carole at Zinio UK. I'm the Business Director here. I understand you've been having some difficulty. We don't usually speak to members of the public here."

LC - "That's OK. You can speak with me now, or Trading Standards in the morning. What's your name and phone number?"

Flannel, flannel....

LC - "I don't think you heard me properly the first time. Trading Standards, in my County Town, right here in Trowbridge. And they'll get onto your local TS guys, who are likely to call around."

C@Z-UK - "OK, OK. I'll sort it out. What was it you wanted, again? Refund.... stopping 'continuous mandate'....removal of personal data.... I don't think I can do all that from here."

LC - "Do please try. I will be visiting another office right next door to our Council's Trading Standards Unit tomorrow morning. I'll take them a bag of Sainsbury's Donuts. They will, I am quite certain, be interested in my evidenced tale of multiple breaches of the Distance Selling Regs...."

C@Z-UK - "I'll call you back tomorrow morning...."
 
armchairsailor said:
Seriously though, I hope you resolve this one - I was contemplating moving onto a digital copy of PBO...
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Are they using Zinio too, then? (don't forget Classic Boat is no longer a stablemate).

Must admit, I don't like these allegedly-value-added digital magazine applications. They always feel clunky, badly done, and give the impression that you risk losing access to the content at any time. I've nothing against electronic content per se (all my photos exist only in electronic form, as well as various documents which I scan and throw away the original), but if I was to replace paper magazines on a shelf with something electronic it would have to be a good honest PDF, not some sinister walled-garden application that emanates distrust and contempt for me the reader.

Pete
 
I regret burdening good forumeers with more of this, but some closure may be close.

prv said:
Are they using Zinio too.....
if I was to replace paper magazines on a shelf with something electronic it would have to be a good honest PDF, not some sinister walled-garden application that emanates distrust and contempt for me the reader.

Pete
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Despite my express wishes - to buy/gift a subscription and have it simply drop 'painlessly' through the door every month, or ditto with an e-subscription - this outfit has entangled me for several days in an attempt to ensnare my wallet. Illegally.

This has been no pleasure.

I was told yesterday evening by the lady Carole, of Zinio UK ( " We don't normally talk to members of the public." ) that she would ensure my requests would be met 'first thing in the morning'. She had already, and explicitly, told the good folks at Chelsea Magazines/Classic Boat that she/they had already completed the refund I had requested 2 days earlier. Not so.... It then emerged that she didn't then know quite what I'd requested.

So, this morning, I sent her another copy.

This in tonight.... verbatim....

Dear 'LC',

I am writing to you to confirm that Customer services have notified me that your purchase is refunded, and you will receive £35.99 in 4-6 business days via the method you use to pay
They have also disabled your account is deleted your credit card details you will receive no other communicate from us

Regards Carole
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I ask myself if there's even the slightest chance I will entangle myself ever again with any company that uses the 'Zinio' operation anywhere in its marketing/fulfilment processes.

No matter how attractive the mag might be.....

End.

I hope.... :eek:


Edit: It seems I'm far from the only one....

http://boardreader.com/thread/PBO_Zinio_Digital_Edition_buyer_BEWARE_7vij0X5soh.html

http://www.myfavouritemagazines.co.uk/digital-magazines/
 
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I'm interested in taking out a digital subscription to the US magazine "Woodenboat", so worried about my experience with Macfee & the above, checked to see if there was a Zinio/Woodenboat tie in, which I couldn't find. Checked the Zinio UK web site however to find they did digital subscriptions for PBO, YM, YW, MBM, MB & Y. So you would think a lot more people would have had this problem.

IanC
 
Oh dear Lady Campanula, these Zinio folk, and especially Lady Carole, really have talent for antagonising their (potential) customers!
It might help if Lady Carole was given some basic lessons in spelling and grammar..... as well as lessons in basic etiquette and how to deal with customers......

May I commend to you a subscription to Professional Boatbuilder instead?
Far more interesting, you can receive it in 'hard copy' or digital format (or both), and it is free to anybody who claims to be involved in the marine trade.
I have just received (by email) from them a link to my on-line copy of the October / November issue.
Have a look at http://www.proboat.com/digital-issues.html
 
There are lots of trite aphorisms in the febrile world of professional selling - and marketing is 'joined at the hip' with that. There is often a grain of truth embedded in them.

Among them are...

'You never get a second chance to make a first impression',

'Every encounter with a client is a selling opportunity - this sale or the next one',

'When a customer is satisfied, they'll tell maybe 5 friends. When dissatisfied, they'll tell more than 20. So where should you put your time and effort?'

Look at the 'read count' here - 900 and rising - and compare that with 'lustyd's post, #10

Go figure... :cool:
 
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And the one that is exacty not what it says on the can'' Theres no such thing as bad publicity''..I think Gerald Ratner for one would disagree:o

I would thank the right hon lady C for taking the effort and time to both flag the issue and to itterate a very clear path to resolution.

One imagines that at some point in an idle moment a CB scribe will chance upon this and pass it along. Or maybe its the hit up nine, lose one attitude to attracting new customers.

Bit like those marina companies that ring you up on customer satisfaction surveys- usually just after a major marina general f-ckup.
Does stuff get acted on? Or is it just a cheap outsourced way to let customers have a moan and hopefully forget their complaints, thinking their clever observations and suggestions have been noted?
Who knows.
 
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