Circumnavigator for £50,000?

I really think I want to stay away from flat bottomed rolly boats ... and I hadn't realised the 390 is not rated for Oceans /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif - No, she'll have to have a decent keel and a wine glass shape: I want the option of going furhter afield than the Carribean /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Circumnavigator for £50,000? HR-352 in Holland

Great link. Thanks, already though with the broker and al is not as it seems: osmosis, decks are shot (broker says it's in a yard getting an estimate), possibly the original sails, wire halyards ... apparently its not had a single upgrade since 1979 /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif For a project with £50,000 extra to spend on her ,,, WOW. but oterwise YUCK.

Staggeringly, she actually has an offer at the asking price!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I hadn't realised the 390 is not rated for Oceans

[/ QUOTE ]Says who?
 
I believe one forumite has circumnavigated in his Biscay 36; others have cruised most of the globe including variously Antarctica and Newfoundland as well as the Med' and Caribbean. Not as voluminous as more modern designs, but good tanks, good lockers and excellent sea boats. An older one at a good price would be an excellent starting point, leaving money in the budget for the inevitable updates/extras to your requirements. Prices tend to be lower than similar better known classes: Rivals, Rustlers, Vancouvers et al.
 
I believe Paul Heiney and Libby Purves sail a Biscay 36 - it came to them with a very impressive cruising record and Paul has done a lot of single handed sailing since then. Seems like a very seaworthy boat.
 
I've read that it's not a Cat A but is rated for coastal sailing. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I will grovel accordingly.

BTW, I think they're great boats. It's just that I can't let go of the concept of having a heavier displacement, wineglass shaped hull in a big sea. I want to go West ... and keep going /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
You need a catalina 38 then - well within your budget. see www.catalina38.org - bought mine for just over £16K,
plus £15k to bring her up to standard.
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Personally, I think they're extremely pretty, especially as a ketch, but I'm biased! Yes PH's book is based on his transatlantic trip in his B36. I love the Tradewinds too, but the Biscay is a far quicker boat and suits my needs to a tee. I know the boat for sale at Ardfern (not mine!) and it's only had one owner in over 25 years - Anno Domini is unfortunately forcing a sale. If anyone's interested in the Biscay 36, there is a Biscay 36 Yahoo! Group with lots of photos etc, please PM me for details.
 
Re: Rival 38C / STUPID USA yacht brokers

Yes, you're right about the layout of the 38C. The Rivals are all lovely - and thoroughly seaworthy - and maybe I will go down that route. It also comes down to money for the fit-out on top of the purchase price ... both her and in the USA there is huge variance in the asking prices with some boats truly "ready to go" and other needing about £25K of extra gear / upgrades. Agony.

Equally, there are those boats which are all upgraded / equipped but are of such a design which makes them either ideal for the Med or a tradewinds route to the Carribean (but not for higher latitudes), and those which simply have an overall design "essence" about them which make them somewhat formidable prospects from the single hander's point of view.

What I'm struggling to get my head around, is the concept of a heavy-ish displacement CAT A cruiser which will also sail in light airs? An Island Packet would do the job but WAY out of my price range ... ditto any HR.

Boats in the USA? The hardest thing there is finding a decent surveyor. So many boats are marketed as being "perfect" but the osmosis is chronic. Some of the total cr*p brokers there have sent me is positively frightening:

QUOTE BROKER IN TEXAS:

"there are extensive blisters over the entire hull, but only about the size of thumbnails. This is not a problem as we don't worry about osmsis like you do in Europe."

"we don't use hull moisture meters here because it's so humid"

Scouts hounour ... the above are true statements from USA brokers in the past two weeks!
 
Re: Rival 38C / STUPID USA yacht brokers

Halbergs seem cheaper in Europe, take a look at yachtfocus.com from Holland. Quite a few decent boats on their site anway.
 
Re: Rival 38C / STUPID USA yacht brokers

I wouldn't let that put you off considering buying in the US.

I have been involved in buying two boats in the US and two in the UK; and there are several forumites (eg Nautibusby) who have followed the same path.

I have to say that on balance the purchases and surveys in the US were actually conducted in the more professional manner.
There are not many UK surveyors who would regard it as standard practice to inspect a mast on a standard pre purchase survey by going aloft as they do in the US.

You get good and bad brokers and surveyors in the US and in the UK. To find the good ones you do the same as you would in the UK, you ask around.
In the UK you might ask on this forum.
In the US there are many local boaters forums, also owners association message boards and yacht club forums.
You could probably even get recommendations from LIveaboard Link here.

One thing they do have in the US that we don't have is BoatUS which can search a boat's history for you as an initial filter to find out any insurance write offs or boats with debts against them.
If you're going to cruise in the US at any time regardless of where you buy the boat, they will be well worth joining.

With regard to the quoted brokers comments - Actually, they are not total crap.
There is an awful lot of hype about blisters and so called osmosis in this country - the americans do have a much more laid back attitude to it - they also don't charge such ridiculous prices to fix it.
In the final analysis they rely on the survey to tell them if there is any structural problem.

There is, thankfully a growing body of opinion in the UK along the same lines.
At least he told you that the problem was there, unlike numerous british brokers I have dealt with who wait and let you go to the expense of hauling out or even survey.

He is also right that moisture meters are not a lot of good in high humidity areas like the Gulf Coast States. In fact they are not always a lot of good here.

According to the moisture meter reading on the first UK boat I bought it was riddled with osmosis and the surveyor recommended on the strength of that reading that the boat be hauled, force dried under cover, the hull stripped and an expensive anti osmosis treatment applied. In all it would have come to more than the asking price of the boat.

The independent boatyard I took her to (not the one recommended by the surveyor) hauled her and left her standing on the outside hard.
At the end of two weeks they took readings that showed the hull was fine and well within the boundaries recommended for protective epoxy coating, which we did at a tenth of the price, and she is still absolutely sound 8 years on.

I have to say when I was looking for a boat in the UK I was appalled by the attitude of many british brokers.
You cannot even rely on a particular company.
Eg, Ancasta - Lymington consumate professional, Queen Annes Battery - outstanding customer service, Haslar - a complete waste of space!!!!

With regard to RCD cats. They should be taken with a pinch of salt are far as sea worthiness is concerned.
The opening paragraphs of the RCD is primarily an instrument of trade harmonisation within the single market (and placing small quality builders -especially those outside the EU at a coomercial disadvantage) and that the categories (strange though this may seem given their titles) do not imply any restriction for use in a particular geographical area.

There are plenty of older boats that are far more seaworthy than some of the new boats being given Cat A that are only cat B.(or less).
Just look for a boat type with a proven track record of seaworthiness and ocean crossing.
You would have to do quite a bit of work on a standard Rival 38 to get it RCD rated as Cat A.as is the Bavaria 34 - but I know which one I'd rather be in when circumnavigating.

At the end of the day buying something cheaper and using the money for upgrades and fitting out may actually be more satisfactory for a circumnavigation and US boatyard labour costs and equipment costs are generally considerably lower than the UK equivalents.

You will be very unlikely to find a boat fitted out exactly as you would wish, especially if the boat has been used for long distance work as boats become very personalised.

Also, if the boat is finishing a long cruise the stuff you are inheriting will have been well used. Much better to use your money on new 'what you wants' rather than someone else's well used hand me downs.

If I was going to circumnavigate I would be looking to renew all the rigging of an older boat anyway.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I would be sorry if you excluded a large body of very good boats from your calculations for no real reason.

Just be aware that British brokers add that small print rider about not accepting liability for the accuracy of anything stated in the information sheet they give you for a reason. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
What an excellent, informative post!

Thank you for that. You present many clear thoughts and your logic is excellent /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I will - almost certainly end up buying in the USA because:

1. Boats cost less, regardless of make, age or any other factor.
2. The USA used boat market is in the doldrums and there are some bargains to be found.
3. Refitting costs are much lower.
4. Labour costs for have the refit completed are lower.
5. I have a US passport so I can stay there for as long as I like while re-fitting.

As to your point about buying the "what I wants" new, I could not agree more. Too many times there are used boats for sale with a stack of gear which is totally obsolete / near end of life. I dump ALL electronics into this category.

Another aspect which is striking, is the number of yacht details where the sails are so old that their age is unknown, or at least ten years old " but they are in great condition and have lots of life" True for some - I'm sure - but I feel I have to factor in replacement costs on those too (notwithstanding the fact that I want a fuly battened main).

Osmosis? Is it realy the big issue it's made to be in the UK or can it be (virtually) ignored as in the USA? I suppose the reality must lie somewhere in between. I'd rather have a hull with ample blistering and a decent keel than an almost flatbottomed BEN/JEN/BAV with no blistering if I am sailing out of the "normal" cruising areas.

Re-rigging: absolutely intend to go up a size on the inevitable re-rigging. Again, in the USA, neither the insurance companies nor the majority of sailors demand new rigging every 10 years. However, upping the size of the rigging is more negative of a light displacement boat, so this points again at an older and heavier design.

The ideas and suggestions offered so far on this thread have been FANTASTIC.
 
Re: What an excellent, informative post!

I have loads of contacts in around the USA and can recommend several brokers/surveyors - and tell you some to avoid-. If buying in FL, I can pass on the contact details of the guy that deals with sales tax exemptions on boats at the department of revenue. Also willing to share my mistakes and things I would do differently.
Can recommend Morgan Out Islands (not pretty but tough and ideal for the job) Older Pearsons (especially the 39) Catalina 38 (I'm biased there of course - but they were designed for TransPac Racing) Bristols - and of course there are many others.
Florida is backed up with 2 years worth of hurricane damaged boats so may or may not be a good thing. Can recommend broker and surveyor in St Petersburg.
Any how PM me if you want any information whatso ever. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Maybe I need to update my opinion... that is a good looking boat you have there. Please excuse the envy I am feeling!
Is that a Galician Ria? Or somewhere more UK?
 
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