Chuising Crutes

[HoratioHB]

Ok you world renowned experts - question time. I am looking at some form of downwind/reaching sail for the new pride and joy. Jeanneau have quoted me an eye watering price for an assymetric 'spinnaker' which flies from a little bowsprit but is apparently easy to handle with a snubber thingy to collapse it. My experience of downwind sails is the good old fashioned spinnaker with pole, downhaul, sheets guys etc etc from my racing days we even used 'big boys' an extra loose luffed geny/spinnaker set the other side which meant we went like a rocket but with rather little control and even less manoeuvrability.

Anyway the foresail on said new toy is Ok but what I really want is a simple to rig, simple to set and then control, sail to improve my offwind performance (and the boats) that won't scare the **** out of SWMBO especailly if gybing or even tacking. Oh and does not cost over £3k for a 42 ft boat.
So am I urinating over the windward side or is there something out there????

 

[ChrisE]

£3k for a cruising chute and snuffer sounds a bit pricey. We bought one for our 38' for abt £1k. Have you asked around for prices with firms such as Sanders Sails in Lymington who understand the needs of cruising sailors?

No connection with firm just had good service (and prices!) from them in the past.

 

[HoratioHB]

Hoping for this sort of advice as I have no idea what is a good price - ta

 

[sailorman]

mine 49 ft luff made by Ocean- Gowen some 4 yrs ago £1k, snuffer about £300

1.5 oz material

 

[roly_voya]

Don't know what sort of boat you have but you might be interested to look up my post on 'modern square rig' on the classic boat forum. Potentialy the idea could work on any cutter (you need runners) and should give similar performace to a cruising shoot but without all the hassle. The quote I have for the sail is £600 plus spar and fittings, should be under 1K even if you get a comercial spar and a rigger to set it up. Pre-war this was quite a common idea but seams to have gone out of fasion simply because of the influence of racing & racing rules but is a much more seamenlike option than spinackers

 

[adrianhodge]

Hi, I've recently been experimenting with a tri-radial cruising chute bought from Jeckells of Wroxham this year for £1330 (including snuffer) on Renegade, a UFO 34. It's a beatiful sail, looks fab. and sets well without a pole, except on a dead run. I'll put a photo on Renegade news at www.renegaders.co.uk <span style="color:blue"> </span>

 

[TigaWave]

After years of racing and wanting to go fast I had the same thoughts.....in practice with light winds the standard kite was good, but with any more than 8-10 knots twin headsails on the same furling gear was surprisingly quick, and could be angled to favour one tack. When these were up the main was packed away meaning great visibility and the ability to change course at will.

One headsail poled the other sheeted through a block at the end of the boom held out with preventer.

Its a very relaxing way to sail downwind.
here it is in 20 knots and we were doing around 8.

 

[njamesphoto]

Re: Chuising Chutes

we also have a jeanneau 37 and the dealer sold us a 100m2 aysimetric which at first seemed a bit big. Now after a bit of practice very easy to use single handed with the snuffer its a momentum sails one and although it wont go dead downwind very well (you have to keep gybeing) in light airs i would not be without it. on a reach in light wind she will fly!

it cost just over £1000 and i bought the sheets seperatly of boatropes on ebay. I suspect they are also adding the selden bowsprit, very nice but we dont use one and its not essential.

 

[silver-fox]

[ QUOTE ]
After years of racing and wanting to go fast I had the same thoughts.....in practice with light winds the standard kite was good, but with any more than 8-10 knots twin headsails on the same furling gear was surprisingly quick, and could be angled to favour one tack. When these were up the main was packed away meaning great visibility and the ability to change course at will.

One headsail poled the other sheeted through a block at the end of the boom held out with preventer.

Its a very relaxing way to sail downwind.
here it is in 20 knots and we were doing around 8.





[/ QUOTE ]

Three questions for you, if I may, as I am considering twin headsails for my rig.

1. Did you ever try the twizzle rig?
2. Is using twin headsails less prone to rolling than goosewinging or does it make little difference
3. Did the twin rig flog in a swell as the sails emptied and refilled?

 

[HoratioHB]

Re: Chuising Chutes

Thanks all, especially snapper - the bowsprit was something that particualrly confused me. I assume a cruising chute is loose luffed and so if the tack is forward of the forestay, ie in the end of the bowsprit then when gybing I assume the whole sail has to 'flip' forward so the new sheet can set it around the front of the forestay (think that makes sense). Whereas if it is tacked to the deck behind the forestay then it would tack and gybe in the conventional manner and save me £1600 in bowsprit!!!

I shall have a ring around some of the sailmakers (especially those not using Chinese labour!!)

 

[TigaWave]

Never tried the twizzle rig as I only had the one pole.

Yes, less prone to rolling as long as you don't have the main up, it's the twisted off top part of the main that helps the boat to roll, pulling the kicker on hard can reduce it. Less roll than kite as the centre of effort is much lower.

Never flogged as you could sheet them tight and flat (not efficient but quieter and less wear) In light winds I usually just put the kite up on its own.

As the main was fully battened and we had swept spreaders I rarely used the main downwind, still averaged nearly 6 knots. Mine was a No1. and No2. genoa.

 

[KellysEye]

We have a twistle rig and an assymetric. The twistle is far easier to handle than any spinnaker because you can furl it to any size and don't need to rush to the foredeck when the wind picks up (just when you don't want to be there).

The twistle does cut rolling because the sails fly free and there is no "mast pushing sail/sail pushing mast". However you still roll, just less. You can sail to around 40 degrees off the wind just adjusting the sheets.

In 5,000 miles we used twin headsails 90% of the time and the assymetric 10% (in light winds).

There are two issues:
- some people don't like the fact that the poles/joint are in constant motion, because normally on ocean passages everything is locked down to avoid wear/chafe. We don't think it matters but you do get pole fitting and sheet chafe.
- we found that in light airs and swell (slatting sails) the pole lift was causing the middle of the mast to pump at an unacceptable level. We either put up the assymetric or removed the joint and poled the twins to the mast.

 

[HoratioHB]

Re: Chuising Chutes

'twin headsails on the same furling gear was surprisingly quick,'

Tigawave, guess I am being particularly thick (so no change there) How can you have two genoas on the same furling gear ??

Also can someone explain the difference to this and a 'twizzle or twistle' setup??

Finally I am looking to increase reaching perfomance not dead downwind and it seems to me that both these ideas are for downwind sailing? I am looking at the Caribbean where the wind is Easterly and most courses are North South between the islands.

 

[KellysEye]

Re: Chuising Chutes

>How can you have two genoas on the same furling gear ??

Twin grooves on the foil or sew two sails together if you have a single groove foil (which we have).

>explain the difference to this and a 'twizzle or twistle' setup??

For twin headsails most people use two poles attached to the mast or one pole and one of the genoas sheeted to the boom. A twistle rig has a free flying universal joint that the poles are attached to. The poles are smaller diameter than spinnaker poles because there are small compression loads. The joint is held by an uphaul (usually the spinnaker pole lift) and downhaul forward (often a block tied between the forward cleats).

- reaching perfomance...Caribbean where the wind is Easterly and most courses are North South between the islands.

You are in for a surprise. The island chain curves and the wind is south east in the summer and north east in the winter. Thus you end up sailing upwind for at least half the time.

 

[HoratioHB]

Re: Chuising Chutes

Sorry - I was simplifying the Caribbean bit but don't anticipate much true downwind work compared to reaching. My boat, is designed for short handed sailing and so does not have a large overlap and the rig could be much better off the wind. but as I said before I have only ever used full spinnakers etc in the past and so was looking for advice on a simple to use off wind rig.
Thanks for the advice on Twistles etc. I will not be carrying any poles and will not have two foresails to stitch together so a cruising chute of some sort seems the way to go. Just need to get a realistic price!!

 

[TigaWave]

Re: Chuising Chutes

As kelly has said...
Even when the wind is on the beam between islands there is generally too much wind for an asymetric 20+ apparent, and as there is also a current running West between the islands you end up on a very close reach much of the time in order to make the next island.

The twin headsail set up does work well even when the wind is 30-40degress off dead astern so great for downwind passages. Once in the Carib it was generally the No2 for between islands, with main and one reef. Never used the kite except when racing once in the islands.

 

[HoratioHB]

Re: Chuising Chutes

Thanks all, my Carib experience is the same I was sort of hoping that new modern systems might be more flexible. I will probably wait till I'm out there and see how the boat goes and whether I fee l the need for more speed. Mind you I told SWMBO I would not race the pride and joy but there is Antigua week and the BVIs regatta etc etc and old habits die hard!

 

[Abigail]

Re: Chuising Chutes

We have a cruising chut (1000 sq ft for a 40' ketch), which cost us approx £1K, inc snuffer from Jeckylls of Wroxham 2.5 years ago, after some intensive negotiation at LIBS. Kemps were the enarest in price,only about £100 different, but we preferred Jeckylls becuase they were local and could come to the boat to make usre it fitted and we knew how to rig it.

It doesn't work v well in swell as it tends to collapse and fill, which s why we are exploring a twin headsail approach with what we have (roller furling genoa and pole, second hanked onheadsail on inner forestay poled to boom) for downwind work in swell.

We do love the cruising chute though in flat water because its very fast.

 

[Troutbridge]

Re: Chuising Chutes

If you feel the need to race, have a large rum and repeat after me "It's my (our) home and Fi will kill me if I dent it". The antics of the racing fraternity at Antigua are best viewed in the evening when they publish stills of the days racing. Caribbean 'colregs' are apparently different to the rest of the world (bigger has right of way) and as far as racing is concerned there appeared to be no rules apart from who has the strongest nerves/bigger bank balance for the repairs is the stand-on boat. Now stand by for postings taking the above seriously!

 

[AndrewB]

Re: Chuising Chutes

[ QUOTE ]
Now stand by for postings taking the above seriously!

[/ QUOTE ]Bin there, take it 100% seriously!