Choosing wood for a laminted tiller.

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boguing

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Choosing wood for a laminated tiller.

I have plenty of teak, and for contrast oak or ash.

What does the team think, from the point of view of what happens to oak and ash if salt/fresh water gets through the epoxy and varnished finish?

I could buy something else if both are condemned, but would rather not.

Thanks.
 
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Ash is ideal for tillers; strong and resilient. It does go a little black when (not "if" :() the water gets in. It glues well too.
Not sure about gluing teak though but, if you are happy to have a go, teak and ash would be my choice.
Otherwise ash and mahogany.

FWIW I always put a cover on my ash tiller when the boat is not in use. We've nicknamed it "the condom".

Edit: Change of mind. Tillergirl is right. Oak and Ash. Dunno why it didn't occur to me earlier!
 
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Oak and Ash are, in my opinion, better timbers for the life a tiller has to lead - more flexible. The reason I have some oak in my tiller is that the iroko tiller broke. I know Iroko is not Teak but I don't think it would take the shocks that inevitably happen to a tiller. I just think Oak and Ash are ideal plus you don't have the issues of getting varnish to stay on teak and gluing for lamination (de-oiling and all that).

If oak gets wet and stays wet it gets black - really black and 'orrid and even oxalic acid will struggle to get rid of the stain. But I am not expecting my oak bit to suffer a varnish failure.
 
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I also reckon mahoganny ( a good one) and ash would look good and function well.
The databases of properties reckon that ash is not very durable. Well maybe not for immersed conditions but there's all those farm tools with ash handles that last long enough
 
I've done a fair bit of iroko laminating (1.4mm thick to 140mm radius, and know that it's prone to fracture almost directly across the grain, and would guess that teak will be much the same). That didn't need steaming, but showed that it is a brittle material.

Thing is that I love the colour contrast. Either teak or iroko will be used.

Ash is renowned for being used in Marcos chassis' so would be the designers choice...

But. It's also reputed to blacken irreversibly when in contact with water. Dunno about oak.

Given that I don't like mahogany, sapele etc. - I will be using teak/iroko.

The question is:-

Which light coloured wood will last well if the epoxy/varnish is penetrated?
 
Even if the ash gets a bit black it will still do the job. Of all the woods which have been mentioned, it's the ash which is best because of its resilience. To my mind ash should be one of the woods you use; particularly as you already have some. The cosmetics are less important than the performance. Any of the other woods could be used with it.

If you want colour contrast why not stain one of the woods?
 
boguing said:
I've done a fair bit of iroko laminating (1.4mm thick to 140mm radius, and know that it's prone to fracture almost directly across the grain, and would guess that teak will be much the same). That didn't need steaming, but showed that it is a brittle material.

Thing is that I love the colour contrast. Either teak or iroko will be used.

Ash is renowned for being used in Marcos chassis' so would be the designers choice...

But. It's also reputed to blacken irreversibly when in contact with water. Dunno about oak.

Given that I don't like mahogany, sapele etc. - I will be using teak/iroko.

The question is:-

Which light coloured wood will last well if the epoxy/varnish is penetrated?
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If you are laminating,and particularly if you have a curve in the shape the type of wood you use is not so important. Ash is often used for solid tillers because you can get good curved grain and it is very absorbent. However, unless you have a really hard mouthed boat such as an old fishing smack it really does not need that property. Ash also goes black if it gets wet. Straight grained mahogany or sapele with douglas fir is as good as anything. Easy to bend and glue plus easy to finish to a smooth surface. Varnish and make a close fitting cover and such a tiller will last you a lifetime for modest cost compared with using more exotic timbers.
 
boguing said:
I have plenty of teak, and for contrast oak or ash.

What does the team think, from the point of view of what happens to oak and ash if salt/fresh water gets through the epoxy and varnished finish?
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I read that using two different woods for the attractive appearance is actually bad practice because the different expansion coefficients can cause the tiller to delaminate. My own tiller is made like this and seems fine from that pov but one of the woods seems to be ash and it goes grey and mouldy wherever the varnish gets dinged. Personally I'd just use laminations of teak if I were making a tiller and forgo the striped appearance.

Boo2
 
boguing said:
Thing is that I love the colour contrast. Either teak or iroko will be used.

Ash is renowned for being used in Marcos chassis' so would be the designers choice...



Given that I don't like mahogany, sapele etc. - I will be using teak/iroko.
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I think you will find that Marcos used plywood chassis and Morgan use ash for the body frame on a steel chassis.

My tiller is curved, so I laminated the part from the stock forward with horizontal layers, then tapered the aft end and laid up vertical laminations for going round the stock. I cheated with the block behind the stock by epoxying in a bit of threaded rod across the join. The extension is a matching curve so when not in use it lays back along the tiller. Strength is not an issue as the rudder loads are very light, even so, it is strong.
 
Boo2 said:
I read that using two different woods for the attractive appearance is actually bad practice because the different expansion coefficients can cause the tiller to delaminate. My own tiller is made like this and seems fine from that pov but one of the woods seems to be ash and it goes grey and mouldy wherever the varnish gets dinged. Personally I'd just use laminations of teak if I were making a tiller and forgo the striped appearance.

Boo2
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If you use thin 6mm laminations and epoxy then differential expansion would not cause problems. As you say, ash is not good as it goes black with any moisture, but the combination I suggested is very commonly used and very stable. Also often used for coachroof beams and in high class architectural work. Sealing the wood well and using a cover when the tiller is not in use greatly extends its life.
 
nigelmercier said:
Be warned that epoxy on teak goes black.
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Not necessarily. I have never had epoxy turn any timber, including teak, black. It cures clear or slightly milky depending on the formulation. Would not normally use epoxy to seal laminated wood where you want it as a feature, only as an adhesive. Finish with a clear varnish, either conventional or polyurethane depending on your preference and the level of gloss required.
 
Ash is traditionally used as it has good resistance to shock, and is springy - walking sticks are traditionally made of ash.

However it is a perishable timber, so needs to be treated. (Think of the woodwork on a morris minor traveller - they are traditionally made up of ash).

Just as important as the timber species though is the grain, you want long straight grain for a tiller.
 
I like the striped effect of a contrasting laminated tiller and it should be stronger than a solid piece of timber. Although ash is not durable, if kept varnished it looks great and is often used for tool handles as it absorbs shock loads. Teak/iroko is a little brittle for my liking when working it teak being generally coarser grained than iroko, so may require some care when flexing it into the mould! Mahogany/sapele and other similar species work nicely although if your boat is trimmed in teak, it will stand out a bit.

Whilst you have the tools out and the measurements to hand, why not make a straight tiller too, as your emegency tiller, you can fit it to go sailing whilst the "best" is being revarnished? There isn't really much advantage to a curved tiller apart from keeping the aft end of the cockpit clear and it will always flex more than a straight one.

Rob
 
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