Choosing a new mainsail - advice please

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Amari

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The main on my Wauquiez Pretorien 35 based in Turkey is eons old. It is slow to lower into lazy jacks/bag despite McLube in mast track so I always have to climb onto coach roof to pull it down, which sometimes scares SHMBO.
i'm minded to replace with fully battened main with Rugerston cars. However a post on related topic a couple of months ago opined against fully battened main because author thinks such a main is more difficult to set efficiiently and more difficult to de-power.
BTW, UK Halsey sailmaker in Cesme advises cars are difficult to obtain in Turkey and advises me to purchase in UK and take out.
Grateful for forumites thoughts
 
We have a Saturn fully battened main (4 battens) with Selden cars on a 38ft boat. An easy one person job to raise it. Turn to windward, open the clutch and down it comes. An expensive system but you do generally get what you pay for. As for setting efficiently, surely that's the whole point of battens? The sail is always a good shape. Light wind performance is optimised because you have a good roach supported by the battens and again the sail has the right shape. Never had an issue de-powering although if your mainsheet isn’t well set up I could see that you might not be able to let it as loose as you want to in a hurry but in 3 years I can’t think of an occasion when this has happened. There are compromises with any set-up but it would take a lot of persuading to convince me to change.
 
I've had both fully battened and normal mains on the same boat - and hope the poster you referred to was misunderstood.

It is true you get considerably more drive from a fully battened main than part battened one. For that reason you may need to review your reefing arrangements - I've gone to 4 reefs from the original 3.
It is also more difficult to reduce drive by "feathering" the main, a ubiquitous practice of dinghy sailors.
In terms of setting less efficiently, nothing could be further from the truth - though I'd advice a loose footed main and plenty of use of the outhaul to get any shape change, and you'll never get as big a shelf in a fully battened main as a conventional one - they're cut flatter.

OVERVIEW
The boat was designed as a lightweight flyer, with a 7/8 rig, easily driven with a deep keel, 40% ballast and LWL 96% of OAL.
As the prototype, she ended up way over her marks, and 7 years of liveaboard cruising means she's about 20% over her design weight.
She is usually sailed single-handed and, in the 17 years I've had her, has averaged 3200nm a year.
A rather more extreme design than the Holman & Pye to which you're referring.
I'd now not consider a conventional main - the benefits more than outweigh the disadvantages:-

ADVANTAGES
10-15% more drive for considerably less heeling force.
Ability to build in an aggressive roach for additional light-air drive.
x2 the life due to reduction in flogging.
Better stowage into lazyjacks and boom bag.
Easier trimming, if you watch the telltales
About 10degrees less in through tacking angle.
Easier control if a single hander.

DISADVANTAGES
You need to choose the cars carefully for minimal friction, or lifting and dropping will involve considerable additional exertion and only be possible head-to-wind.
You have to check and adjust batten tension of a regular basis.
On a swept-spreader rig the effects of chafe are increased.
Cost (about 35-40% more).

EXPOSITION
With the additional drive comes additional stress on the mast - mine fatigue-fractured (due to pumping of a thick-wall, small cross-section bendy mast) off Cabo Gato and the insurers declined to contribute to its replacement). The replacement, calculated from base principles, had a 44% greater cross-section and 18% more material in it.

The original main, ideal for Atlantic waters, which I still keep for "better" sailing seas than the Med, could be lifted and dropped at any point of sailing. Jeremy Robinson made that using old Rutgerson batten ends and Bainbridge Oilite bushes for the cars. The plastic slugs proved too fragile and all the slides ended up as Oilite.

After the gravity storm, I made use of the extra mast length to have an "extreme" mainsail for the Med and its inadequate winds- some of the early Bainbridge 4000 Sailman cars, 5 instead of 4 battens and an aggressive roach, overlapping the backstay by 60 cm, an increase in area of 22%.
Because of the greater bearing area of the cars, this main involves Herculean effort to raise and trying to reef demands winching the luff down (except where I've fitted single-line reefing on the two bottom reefs); taking down means coming dead head to wind.
An annoying feature of the Sailman 4000 cars is that they're tensioned by an integral pan head 6mm machine screw. If the batten is insufficiently tensioned these happily work themselves loose and rain down on one's unprotected head.
The old Rutgerson ones, with a wedge behaved similarly and one soon learnt to put a safety line on them, so they weren't lost overboard.
Adhesive-backed HDPE has proved the answer to chafe on batten-pocket shroud interface and spreader end - the only problem, I've not been able to source any more supplies outside the US of A.

If you want to convert to full-battened main, do talk with a competent sailmaker - I've always used Sobstad, but I'm sure Crusader or Gowen would be equally helpful.
Jeremy only charged me £1300 for the last main - mind you I supplied all the hardware.
If you'd like to PM with any other queries I'd be glad to help!
 
A FB main should always perform better than a standard main all other things being equal.

Downside is that you have to be into wind to drop it and it can't be depowered easily in an MOB recovery / picking up a mooring under sail type of situation.

It is also more expensive and may be more prone to chafe.

Good quality cars are a must - slides or cheap cars can result in jamming in the track when dropping.

- W
 
In complete contrast to these excellent replies, my cruising boat had a battenless, headboard-less, 10oz soft Dacron main with no roach!
It had one jiffy reef which halved the sails area.

It was a delight to hoist and drop, set well and was ultra-low maintenance. It worked on my boat (at the time) because she had a large main and the loss of the roach actually helped to correct a tendency towards excessive weatherhelm.
 
I have a full battened main which I inherited with the boat, I certainly will not replace it with a full/b sail when the time comes. It,s impossible to reef off the wind, important to me, and much more expensive, imo, for cruising, KIS. Bill.
 
We've got a fully battened main with a large roach and have never had a problem reefing off the wind. Sometimes you have to pull the lazy jacks forward but that's about it.

We've done two Atlantic crossing with the rig and have never once rounded up to put in a reef or hoist the sail after dropping it in a hurry when a squall came through.

In the past we've owned boats with lug, gaff and Bermudan rigs and had Bermudan mainsails with no battens, traditional battens and even in mast reefing with a vertically battened main. We have to say that our current mainsail is our favourite so far.

Charles Reed gave a very good, detailed reply and I would certainly agree with the points he made. Our main came from Channon Sails (John Channon used to beat Hood and now does design while getting sails made in China...we found the end result to be good quality at sensible price)
 
I have fully battened main on our 38 foot catalina. It only has normal sailslides but has not been a problem for us. We certainly find it easier to set and with a tall skinny main like ours we need all the help we can get in maintaining a good sail shape. We only have the one very deep reef because of the sail shape which suits us very well for the sort of cruising we do.
 
If we’re hard on the wind and need to reef then easing the mainsheet to take the major part of the tension off the sail is usually enough to let us reef/shake without any drama. No need to change course. The lack of friction in the cars is probably the key to this. A number of people have mentioned the cost but I do think that if you go for a fully battened main you should get the best sail handling system you can. It's not worth compromising. That cost may well be a factor in your decision but the old adage that you remember the quality long after the price has been forgotten is never truer than on boats!
 
agreed.. we just have the system that was on the boat when we bought her. Our slides would probably be a pain with a different shaped mainsail. With a luff of 44ft on a foot of only 11ft 6 inches they don't cause us a problem. Our 166% genoa is a different problem and that's where we have invested in a good quality 135% genoa and a 105% jib. They make life so much easier on longer passages. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Excellent response from Charles Reed that is certainly a 'cut out and keep' for anyone thinking about a fully battened main.

One thing which I think is worth mentioning. Not every sailmaker is good at making them, despite all the modern building gizmo's. They are still fairly new and very difficult to make and get right - hence the larger cost. I have seen a couple of howlers lately that had to go back and resembled junk rigged sails ( No disregard to junk rigged owners who have a different type entirely ).

Try and pick a sailmaker with a good track record at making really good ones.
 
Many thanks for these helpful replies. The emphasis on getting a good sailmaker makes me hesitate about using Turkish outfit which obviously does not have carrs on the shelf because they advise me to purchase in UK. UK Halsey made me an excellent genoa last year [actually manufactured in Istanbul] and are an international firm, but I wonder if their Turkish loft has sufficient experience. Maybe I will get a quote from a UK loft, but will need to know weight re taking it out as personal luggage.
 
Bill, don\'t give up

the off-wind problem is very real as I know.

However you don't know how difficult off-the-wind reefing is with that boat with a standard main.
My first (normal-size) main was infinitely better than the standard main for off-wind reefing and it was only the decision to go to "hi-tech" cars which caused problems with the current one.

I'd suggest either fitting a powerful single line reef system (most on offer have too much frictional resistance to be effective) or, as I do on the top 2 reefs, use a strop from the luff to the mast winch to pull down the luff.

The single-line reef takes about 26 secs to put in, without leaving the cockpit, and the 1st one also doubles up as Cunningham and flattening reef.

The benefits, IMHO, of a fully battened main well outweigh the disadvantages; and I've used both on the same boat!!
 
Yes John

has a very good reputation in the industry, specialises in 1 offs for big cruisers, but had the reputation of being costly.

I think you'll find most UK sailmakers tend to have their cruising sails made in China - as one remarked to me "You just can't find people interested in sewing things, locally, nowadays..."
 
Re: Yes John

I'm very pleased with my FBmain supplied and made in the UK by Crusader.
I'm sure they can deliver to wherever the boat is.
It's so much more efficient, it got rid of weather helm .
It is harder to raise with standard sliders but we manage, and it's getting easier with Sailkote.
Don't overtighten the battens.
It's true the boat will sail forwards while you're raising the sail (demonstrating it's efficiency!),
but you learn to allow for it.
A sail that gives more drive and less side/heeling force for the same area, has to be an improvement, if you're actually interested in sailing!!
 
Do get a quote from 'FAR EAST SAILS HONG KONG' whatever you decide, they deliver anywhere wordwide, free via, 'Fed Ex'. My new genny arrived on Thurs, lovely job 1/2 the price of any UK price I recieved. Bill.
 
Because I did not want to alter my mast I went half way with a kemps 3/4 batten main, which I am very pleased with. It does make a massive difference and I have no complaints raising it with the original mast track and slugs.

I did make a mistake in ordering just two lines of reefing cringles. We were caught in a F7 and I couldn't get the power off, that winter I sent it back and got a 3rd deep reef added. Luckily not proved yet, but it is really deep!

So if you do go up a size, my advice is pay a little extra and get a deep reef added.
 
[ QUOTE ]
We were caught in a F7 and I couldn't get the power off, that winter I sent it back and got a 3rd deep reef added. Luckily not proved yet, but it is really deep!

So if you do go up a size, my advice is pay a little extra and get a deep reef added.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re your post on my 'FAR EAST SAILS HONG KONG' thread,
Now then!
If you had not squandered your dosh being patriotic, you would have gone the whole way with your initial order!

Instead of frightening yourself, and you'd have been able to afford the 3rd reef the FirsT time!!! Cheers, Bill.
 
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