Choice of engine lube oil

[BirvidikBob]

I need to change the oil on my mermaid melody 90 HP. It's a bog standard naturally aspirated marinisation of the Ford New Holland tractor engine.

I have a chance here (Turkey) to buy some Castrol Tection Turbomax at a discount. It's the right viscosity at 15W - 40.

Given that I can get it cheaper than the recommended Castrol GTX is there anything wrong with using it? I suspect that it's over-rated for what I want it for and that I'd just be wasting its no-doubt excellent hi-tech qualities.

Is there anything I'm missing here?

 

[VicS]

Vyv Cox has a useful page on his website http://coxengineering.co.uk/oil.aspx

 

[Latestarter1]

I need to change the oil on my mermaid melody 90 HP. It's a bog standard naturally aspirated marinisation of the Ford New Holland tractor engine.

I have a chance here (Turkey) to buy some Castrol Tection Turbomax at a discount. It's the right viscosity at 15W - 40.

Given that I can get it cheaper than the recommended Castrol GTX is there anything wrong with using it? I suspect that it's over-rated for what I want it for and that I'd just be wasting its no-doubt excellent hi-tech qualities.

Is there anything I'm missing here?

Nope you are not missing anything Castrol Tection Turbomax is the correct spec for your Ford application 15W40 ACEA E5 oil, Cyril Snare at Mermaid had some funny ideas about oils, and Viv Cox is still all tangled up in US SAE stuff, we have been trying to break free of SAE for years.

 

[vyv_cox]

Thanks VicS.

As you will see on my website it's the API grade that tells you whether the oil is suitable. I don't know your engine but I gather it would not be described as high performance and is a fairly elderly design. Check your engine manual if you have one but it seems likely that the recommended lubricant will be API CD, like very many of our engines. CC, CD and several other grades have been obsolete for years but to this day they are specified for many new engines.

CD is increasingly difficult to find in UK but is readily available in Europe. If the oil you have been offered is from a reputable manufacturer and the correct grade you are on to a good thing!

 

[vyv_cox]

and Viv Cox is still all tangled up in US SAE stuff, we have been trying to break free of SAE for years.

I doubt that I have ever mentioned SAE, as I know nothing about it, with the exception of viscosity grades..

ACEA E5 is obsolete. The OP is in exactly the same situation as those large numbers of us whose specified lubricant is API CD.

 

[Latestarter1]

Thanks VicS.

As you will see on my website it's the API grade that tells you whether the oil is suitable. I don't know your engine but I gather it would not be described as high performance and is a fairly elderly design. Check your engine manual if you have one but it seems likely that the recommended lubricant will be API CD, like very many of our engines. CC, CD and several other grades have been obsolete for years but to this day they are specified for many new engines.

CD is increasingly difficult to find in UK but is readily available in Europe. If the oil you have been offered is from a reputable manufacturer and the correct grade you are on to a good thing!

Viv sometimes I think of these forums as an intimate little boys club which detests interlopers.

Please stop confusing the hell out of this poor guy.

ACEA E5 is not obsolete, SAE CD must certainly is. Castrol Turbomax Tection 15/40 ACEA E5 is a CH-4 and suits his engine perfectly, how do I know..I was a member of original Ford design team which did the engine.

I am afraid I ceased to take your comments seriously when you rambling on about the use of SAE CI grade oils in a previous thread. We did CI oils in the U.S. specifically for EPA 04 engines to meet specific challenge of coping with 500ppm sulphur fuel and high EGR levels on heavy duty on highway truck engines with articulated pistons.

Another member has prevailed upon me to reveal my credentials, so here we go:
BOT Chief Engineer (Motor) Doxford and Sulzer engines.

Ford Motor Co Dearborn US and Basildon UK, senior product engineer, Dover engine program.

Cummins Engine Co, London and Columbus US, technical manager. Member of EEA (European Engine Alliance) consisting of Cummins/Ford New Holland/IVECO product team which developed the IVECO Tector and Cummins ISB engines. Automotive product planning leader B&C Series engines, switched to industrial product leader before retirement.

Chairman of SMMT (Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders) Diesel Engine Section representing interests of UK Diesel engine manufacturing liaising with DTI, also elected member of Euromot on future European diesel emissions.

Diesel engine consultant to Energy Savings Trust.

Pastime, restoring and making old Fairey boats go fast.

 

[Heckler]

Viv sometimes I think of these forums as an intimate little boys club which detests interlopers.

Please stop confusing the hell out of this poor guy.

ACEA E5 is not obsolete, SAE CD must certainly is. Castrol Turbomax Tection 15/40 ACEA E5 is a CH-4 and suits his engine perfectly, how do I know..I was a member of original Ford design team which did the engine.

I am afraid I ceased to take your comments seriously when you rambling on about the use of SAE CI grade oils in a previous thread. We did CI oils in the U.S. specifically for EPA 04 engines to meet specific challenge of coping with 500ppm sulphur fuel and high EGR levels on heavy duty on highway truck engines with articulated pistons.

Another member has prevailed upon me to reveal my credentials, so here we go:
BOT Chief Engineer (Motor) Doxford and Sulzer engines.

Ford Motor Co Dearborn US and Basildon UK, senior product engineer, Dover engine program.

Cummins Engine Co, London and Columbus US, technical manager. Member of EEA (European Engine Alliance) consisting of Cummins/Ford New Holland/IVECO product team which developed the IVECO Tector and Cummins ISB engines. Automotive product planning leader B&C Series engines, switched to industrial product leader before retirement.

Chairman of SMMT (Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders) Diesel Engine Section representing interests of UK Diesel engine manufacturing liaising with DTI, also elected member of Euromot on future European diesel emissions.

Diesel engine consultant to Energy Savings Trust.

Pastime, restoring and making old Fairey boats go fast.

Oh dear,
I know who I would rather believe!
Stu

 

[vyv_cox]

Viv sometimes I think of these forums as an intimate little boys club which detests interlopers.

Please stop confusing the hell out of this poor guy.

ACEA E5 is not obsolete, SAE CD must certainly is. Castrol Turbomax Tection 15/40 ACEA E5 is a CH-4 and suits his engine perfectly, how do I know..I was a member of original Ford design team which did the engine.

I am afraid I ceased to take your comments seriously when you rambling on about the use of SAE CI grade oils in a previous thread. We did CI oils in the U.S. specifically for EPA 04 engines to meet specific challenge of coping with 500ppm sulphur fuel and high EGR levels on heavy duty on highway truck engines with articulated pistons.

Another member has prevailed upon me to reveal my credentials, so here we go:
BOT Chief Engineer (Motor) Doxford and Sulzer engines.

Ford Motor Co Dearborn US and Basildon UK, senior product engineer, Dover engine program.

Cummins Engine Co, London and Columbus US, technical manager. Member of EEA (European Engine Alliance) consisting of Cummins/Ford New Holland/IVECO product team which developed the IVECO Tector and Cummins ISB engines. Automotive product planning leader B&C Series engines, switched to industrial product leader before retirement.

Chairman of SMMT (Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders) Diesel Engine Section representing interests of UK Diesel engine manufacturing liaising with DTI, also elected member of Euromot on future European diesel emissions.

Diesel engine consultant to Energy Savings Trust.

Pastime, restoring and making old Fairey boats go fast.

My philosophy is a simple one. I try as far as possible to do what the manufacturer recommends. If the manufacturers of Volvo, Bukh, Yanmar, etc, etc, recommended ACEA E5 oils I would recommend that oil. They don't. Virtually without exception they recommend API CD, which as you rightly say, is obsolete.

In my previous life, both in research and as a lubricants adviser for rotating equipment with a hydrocarbons multinational I learnt a bit about how oils are made, how they work and how they are specified. I therefore try to advise what would be a suitable alternative for the obsolescent or unavailable oils.

If you believe that you know better than I do then please give us the benefit of your wisdom. I don't claim to be a lubricants formulator, just someone with a bit of inside knowledge and a lot of experience.

On another note, I find it difficult to reconcile your statement 'I am afraid I ceased to take your comments seriously when you rambling on about the use of SAE CI grade oils in a previous thread. We did CI oils in the U.S. specifically for EPA 04 engines to meet specific challenge of coping with 500ppm sulphur fuel and high EGR levels on heavy duty on highway truck engines with articulated pistons' with the requirements of a small yacht auxiliary engine running on either red or road diesel in UK and Europe. Are you telling us that an API CI grade oil is suitable for them? If so, you are most welcome to fill your yacht engine with it and let us know the results in a couple of years.

So far as E5 obsolescence is concerned, see here, here, here. A further quote found at random 'Replacing the now obsolete ACEA E5-02, the new E7-04 specification incorporates a more severe 90-cycle shear stability test requirement '.

 

[saltwater_gypsy]

Duckhams have come back on the market with CD oil at Halfords ....simples (meerkat noise!!!)

 

[vyv_cox]

Duckhams have come back on the market with CD oil at Halfords ....simples (meerkat noise!!!)

Also, I find that Shell X-100 super is rated SG/CD and is available in a range of viscosities.

 

[pvb]

It's a shame that manufacturers and legislators have conspired to create such an impenetrably complex mess of oil specifications - complicated even more by the rivalry between SAE and ACEA grades. Paul's post (Latestarter) perhaps gives an insight into the minds of the manufacturing people, whereas the rest of us are saddled with finding our way through the jungle of different oil specs.

I've never subscribed to the view that you can damage older engines by putting modern oil in them, so I just buy the best oil (within reason) I can find. For my 20 year old Volvo Penta 2003T, I usually use part-synthetic diesel oil from Halfords. It's undoubtedly a higher spec than the engine was designed for, but I can't see it'll do it any harm.

 

[VicS]

It's a shame that manufacturers and legislators have conspired to create such an impenetrably complex mess of oil specifications - complicated even more by the rivalry between SAE and ACEA grades.

Absolutely agree but its the ACEA specs vs the API specs that are the problem.
I think the SAE viscosity grades are used in relation to both or are they?

I do know the basics of the API specs but not the detail like Vyv does. So far I have not found out very much at all about the ACEA specs.

It would be interesting if Latestarter could give a bit of an explanation of them.

 

[fishermantwo]

It's a shame that manufacturers and legislators have conspired to create such an impenetrably complex mess of oil specifications - complicated even more by the rivalry between SAE and ACEA grades. Paul's post (Latestarter) perhaps gives an insight into the minds of the manufacturing people, whereas the rest of us are saddled with finding our way through the jungle of different oil specs.

I've never subscribed to the view that you can damage older engines by putting modern oil in them, so I just buy the best oil (within reason) I can find. For my 20 year old Volvo Penta 2003T, I usually use part-synthetic diesel oil from Halfords. It's undoubtedly a higher spec than the engine was designed for, but I can't see it'll do it any harm.

Modern oils are for modern engines. Modern oils are death to older engines as many classic car enthusiasts have found out. ZDDDP[think this is correct] and zinc levels are critical for tappet wear. Stick with the manufactures recommendations. Many of the classic oils have returned to the market place for a reason.

 

[Rowana]

{snip}
BOT Chief Engineer (Motor) Doxford and Sulzer engines.
{snip}

Ah, the good old Doxford. Was quite fond of the B&W myself -

Or how about one of these -

As to oils, as vyv says many manufacturer are still recommending CD in their manuals, even though it has been obsolete for years. Trouble is, these engines were designed when CD was the current spec, and they are too lazy to change their manuals. If you go to the API site, you will find that the current grade to replace CD is CF4. Tesco, who never refined a litre of oil in their puff, sell an own brand oil to CF4 spec. This is what I use in my Beta, changing both the oil and the filter twice a year, which I feel is appropriate, as the engine sits more than it runs, therefore benifits from sitting in clean(ish) oil for most of it's life.

 

[Latestarter1]

Vic two egos rubbing together is creating so much smoke that nobody can see clearly.

Let me set the record straight and then people can come up for air.

I come from a background of looking at oils from a world-wide view, brand loyalty means not a jot to me and I have always been focused on the ‘value package’ particularly when it comes to operation of small diesel engines, around one liter and heavy duty automotive diesel engines up to 16 liters.

#1 Let us get the story right on ACEA E5. ACEA is the European Automobile Manufacturers Association where we have sought to become independent of SAE in the US. ACEA E5 is closely related to CH-4, however it has certain benefits over a straight forward CH-4. If you purchase a CH-4 lube you will find the label is akin to the dead- sea scrolls where engine manufacturers separate engineering approvals are bolted on, CAT, Cummins CES, Mack T, Mercedes 228, Volvo VDS which can make life a misery for the end user, if you purchase a CH4 you have to check individual engine manufacturers approval.

When we did ACEA E5 we incorporated engine manufacturers separate approvals into the spec in order to avoid customer confusion. For example for my part I ensured that the Cummins CES 20077/20078 overhead wear test, no longer up to speed but Volvo were also talking rolling VDS3 and Mack T3 soot wear test. All I do know is that every premium brand ECEA E5 I have looked at lists Volvo VDS3 approval, it does what it says on the tin. Is everybody with me so far?

Is ACEA E5 dead NO. We are currently on Tier II emission levels for off road engines and going Tier III. Forget USA as EPA stuff this will mess people’s minds up completely but our heavy duty road vehicles are at Euro 4/5. The on road and off road emission levels are not simple to correlate, however simply put we had two engine strategies to get to Euro 4 and 5, Exhaust Gas Recirculation EGR and Selective Catalytic Reduction. SCR has proved to be the more popular, however experience has told the catalyst has proved sensitive to tiny quantities of oil carryover. ACEA E5 was looked at again and by adding a tougher shear test which reduced oil carryover at long truck oil drain intervals, this modified ACEA 5 was designated E7.

I agree totally that ACEA will no longer accept new approvals to E5 standard; however in the market place it is alive and well. Turkey is not in EC therefore is a non emission regulated market, agricultural, industrial, marine engines at the present time only just going over to low levels of treatment, thank God.

So do we need a more expense ACEA E7 in our marine engines or for that matter CI spec lube oils when agricultural and commercial factors have buckets full of ACEA E5 at competitive prices certainly not!

If you have Cummins B or C, Ford Dorset/Dover, Perkins 4.236/6.354 14W40 to ACEA E5 is the best balance of cost Vs performance for you.

 

[Latestarter1]

Ah, the good old Doxford. Was quite fond of the B&W myself -

Never liked B&W or for that matter Gotaverken, nasty things used to throw heavy bits at engineers,

Once had a Junior who had a dear John when we were on Aussie coast, lifted off crankcase door and jumped in, had to continue running until we could get into Newcastle NSW to bunker fresh lube oil. We did not have self cleaning purifiers, very old Sharples and greasers needed a real kick up the butt to clean them in case they found recognisable bits of Eric inside.

Happy days

 

[Heckler]

Vic two egos rubbing together is creating so much smoke that nobody can see clearly.

Let me set the record straight and then people can come up for air.

I come from a background of looking at oils from a world-wide view, brand loyalty means not a jot to me and I have always been focused on the ‘value package’ particularly when it comes to operation of small diesel engines, around one liter and heavy duty automotive diesel engines up to 16 liters.

#1 Let us get the story right on ACEA E5. ACEA is the European Automobile Manufacturers Association where we have sought to become independent of SAE in the US. ACEA E5 is closely related to CH-4, however it has certain benefits over a straight forward CH-4. If you purchase a CH-4 lube you will find the label is akin to the dead- sea scrolls where engine manufacturers separate engineering approvals are bolted on, CAT, Cummins CES, Mack T, Mercedes 228, Volvo VDS which can make life a misery for the end user, if you purchase a CH4 you have to check individual engine manufacturers approval.

When we did ACEA E5 we incorporated engine manufacturers separate approvals into the spec in order to avoid customer confusion. For example for my part I ensured that the Cummins CES 20077/20078 overhead wear test, no longer up to speed but Volvo were also talking rolling VDS3 and Mack T3 soot wear test. All I do know is that every premium brand ECEA E5 I have looked at lists Volvo VDS3 approval, it does what it says on the tin. Is everybody with me so far?

Is ACEA E5 dead NO. We are currently on Tier II emission levels for off road engines and going Tier III. Forget USA as EPA stuff this will mess people’s minds up completely but our heavy duty road vehicles are at Euro 4/5. The on road and off road emission levels are not simple to correlate, however simply put we had two engine strategies to get to Euro 4 and 5, Exhaust Gas Recirculation EGR and Selective Catalytic Reduction. SCR has proved to be the more popular, however experience has told the catalyst has proved sensitive to tiny quantities of oil carryover. ACEA E5 was looked at again and by adding a tougher shear test which reduced oil carryover at long truck oil drain intervals, this modified ACEA 5 was designated E7.

I agree totally that ACEA will no longer accept new approvals to E5 standard; however in the market place it is alive and well. Turkey is not in EC therefore is a non emission regulated market, agricultural, industrial, marine engines at the present time only just going over to low levels of treatment, thank God.

So do we need a more expense ACEA E7 in our marine engines or for that matter CI spec lube oils when agricultural and commercial factors have buckets full of ACEA E5 at competitive prices certainly not!

If you have Cummins B or C, Ford Dorset/Dover, Perkins 4.236/6.354 14W40 to ACEA E5 is the best balance of cost Vs performance for you.

Uhhh!
all I can see is one ego!
Stu

 

[vyv_cox]

Trouble is, these engines were designed when CD was the current spec, and they are too lazy to change their manuals. If you go to the API site, you will find that the current grade to replace CD is CF4.

This isn't quite the case. CF4 replaced CD to reflect changes in the typical operation of motor cars. Motorway and dual carriageway travel led to higher oil temperatures and therefore more acidic conditions in the engine and its lubricant. CF4 has a higher TBN intended to combat this. The typical operation of yacht auxiliary engines, and in many cases their design, has barely changed in many years, thus there was no reason to change the oil specification.

ACEA E5 is closely related to CH-4, however it has certain benefits over a straight forward CH-4.

CH-4 has a TBN of 10 or 11, as has ACEA E3, E5, E7 and API CI. These TBNs are specified to cope with heavy duty, probably turbocharged, engines running at motorway speeds for many hours every day, on a range of fuel sulphur levels.
API CC has a TBN of 3, API CD has a TBN of 4. These oils were designed for use in low power, non turbocharged engines running at low temperatures. Horses for courses.

 

[Latestarter1]

Vyv,

Most if not all of your old yacht auxiliaries are indirect injection motors and I can see another reason why there are so many different agendas here. OP was asking for advice on twenty year old direct injection mid range diesel, bit like the Irish directions 'I would not start from here if I were you' he was asking for a simple answer and did I did feel that you were sending him on a wild goose chase.

When we did Dover project twenty years ago original Ford Motor Co spec was constructed around API CD which was a heavy duty lube oil for truck bus and industrial applications and not intended as a light duty automotive (indirect injection) lube although it worked.

When CD went we were left with CF-4 for direct injection motors and for you little niche of indirect injection engines CF lubes. I have never had any real involvement in IDI motors but believe that CF is according to OATS and Ethyl hand book suitable for N/A as well as turbo engines. Because availability of CD is now marginal cost and availability is issue, most old little IDI motors as you quite rightly say are insensitive to their lube so I cannot get stressed about TBN. The fact that old engines cause so much heartache, maybe a good reason for switching to new Kubota, Mitsubishi or Yanmar base motor.

With advent of Tier II all proper engines (not puddle jumpers) are now turbocharged and charge air cooled. Manufacturers issue concise oil service guidelines with their engines which should be followed to the letter, end users should avoid any creative thought, just RTFM.

 

[snowleopard]

Going back to the OP, let me put a heretical viewpoint.

If you change your oil at the end of every season after a few dozen hours use, virtually anything of approximately the right viscosity will do the job. A couple of gallons of cheap 'diesel' oil from Halfords will set you back a little over £20. It's not as if you are thrashing a high performance engine.