Chip Tuning Marine Diesels: Any experiences or thoughts

[ulyden]

Just remember there are some differences in car chipping and boat chipping.
If you chip a car with maximum speed of 200km/h 20% up you get 6% extra speed.
You need 250rpm more if your maximum speed is at 4000revs like most of all diesels are these days! In this data sheet it’s all ok!

http://www.hs-elektronik.com/datenblatt-d/bmw-e87-118d-122ps.html

Problem is that a lot of diesel cars are propelled to light! Old BMW 320 for example is running 4400 at top speed! You see then that engine power is down to 110hp in this case! If you don’t change the ration on final drive you don’t get more speed. Your acceleration is much better. But how long are you using maximum acceleration? You need 10 seconds to 100.After 30 sek you are at 180! That is the time you are running with higher power. As long as your gear ration is the same the power is the same at a certain speed! A car engine (BMW) is designed for 200 000km at full power. At top speed of 200km/h this is 1000h. That is on of the reason why the boat pleasure ratings are higher. The engine is designed for only 300h at full load!

Load profile. A modern car with a D3 or a similar engine can reach 200-220km pr hour! (120-130miles/h) How many are using this speed? Most countries in Europe you can drive 130-150km/h on highways! This means a cruising speed of 70% of maximum (2800rpm on a 4000rev engine) or 36% engine power!

In Norway maximum speed limit is 100km/h and my BMW is using 10% of the engine power at cruising speed! That’s why I have chip tuned my car! Even if the big torque is to strong for the clutch and the damping springs in the clutch!

If you chip a small van that’s maximum speed are 120 and increase the maximum speed to 130 and are using it all the time the situation is more like a boat!

A fast boat runs 10% speed reduction or 76% engine power. Older engines (No common rail) could run continues 95% speed or 88% engine rating! If you chip tune one of these you can risk cruising at 108% rated load! Don’t think this is clever!

Also remember that to map an engine you needs a lot of things. You need a brake with monitoring and control system. You need an emissions rack witch is quite expensive!
You need to measure the firing pressure in at least one cylinder! This is expensive! You should also monitor the needle lift in the injector to se the injection period!
You need a fast monitoring system so you can calculate the IMEP ROR also se the filling rate and the opening pressure the exh.valve mechanism has to work against!

Then you need of course the normal data as temperatures pressures in cooling water, oil ,charge air, exhaust outlet end inlet of turbo, back pressure ,boost pressure ,rail pressure oil pressure ,cooling water pressure and so on.

Then you come to the tricky point. You need to know the limits for firing pressure, injection pressure, needle lift period, exh temps. Valve opening force, maximum turbocharger speed, maximum exh. inlet temp on turbo, maximum exh. valve temperature, maximum boost pressure, smoke limits nox limits and so on. If you need to measure the particles it needs a hell of instruments and the cost is very high!

When you are finished you need a new test certificate on the emissions levels are within the IMO EPA or other limits. This is a lot of documentation work! You have to make a new technical file and if you are selling it to EPA you have to make documentation that it will be within limits for at least 1000running hours or useful life time!

You should also know if there could be any torsion vibrations in the crank shaft to consider!

I have asked chip tuners for documentation of the new maps. I have never seen any!

I know it’s easy to remap an engine! I do it very often. If I could get 1000p for the job and no warranty claims I could make a great business! Even cheaper doing it without any test cell.
Just add on more fuel boost and advanced timing! Then I really could make money!

 

[ianj99]

I'm sceptical about claims like these.
Want more power? get more cubes.

Tuning of TURBO diesels electronically certainly does work. Such products for common rail engine have been on sale for over 10years and ours for 5. For road vehicles the impact on reliability is not significant and most also improve fuel economy. They do this by altering the injection timing & often the boost pressure directly (in the case of a remap) or indirectly in the case of a plug-in unit, and also improving combustion efficiency by raising the fuel pressure.

Without a turbo, the increases are limited because as you point out ,more air is also needed. On a marine engine without a turbo forget it. Tuning will more than likely produce an overload state - black smoke, raised exhaust temperature and greater fuel consumption.

On a turbo engine there is usually a surplus of air so a modest amount of extra fuel will generate more torque. So assuming that the engine, on full throttle does not reach its maximum (continuous) rpm, then increasing the fuel will result in more torque and a higher rpm & hence speed being reached.
Whether you want to subject the power train to the extra load is arguable - on the road where full throttle is seldom used for long, its safe.
In a boat where the loading is much higher and prolonged its possibly not worth the risk considering the hassle & possible danger of breaking down at sea....

I certainly would not recommend or sell anyone an 'off the shelf' plug-in unit for a marine engine. I'd at the very least fit and set it up myself.
I

 

[BartW]

The Volvo D3 is produced in many different versions,
11O Hp (this is the low rev version)
130 HP
160 HP
190 HP
and now should be available the new
220 HP
(all D3 models will soon(now) be replaced by a redesigned D3, but still called D3)

all the same 5 cyl blok, 2.4L

For a manufacturer it DOES make sense to develop one engine and make several versions, as they did with the D3, wich is in fact the same as the 5cyl 2.4 l car engine.
It really does make sense to use the same block, and have different versions, just by the chip tuning, Re developement cost, stocking cost, service...

we see exactly the same with products in my business, you buy a product, and just by paying some extra money, you get a code, to release some extra features.

I have been told by a Volvo engineer that the
130 and 160 are basically the same engines, just different chip, and that the 190 is basically the same as the 220

What surprises me from the specs of the tuning box, is that they can get the full 190 out of a 160,

while I found this:
tp://www.ziptuning.nl/boot/Volvo-Penta-D3-160-160pk.html#header

ziptuning really "reprograms" the orriginal engine chip, no add on box, they get only 180HP out of the 160HP engine.

but no real personal experience myself.

 

[tinkicker0]

I have no problems with chipping getting more power from a certain engine. Engine manufacturers often design an engine for a maximum envisaged horsepower and detune it for added durability, better fuel economy and cleaner emissions from the zorst.

I do have problems seeing how to get more power with no effect on durability and with better fuel consumption.

More power equals more heat and more stress. Heat and stress have a major effect on the durability of an engine.

An engine is a machine that turns chemical energy into heat and motion.

To get more energy out, more energy has to be put in, therefore I cannot see how the claim for improved fuel consumption can hold true, especially in a marine situation when the engine is under load constantly.

More power ok - at the cost of durability, simply no alternative.

More power - at the cost of fuel consumption, no alternative.

More power at the cost of pollution, no alternative.

You cannot claim any side of the triangle has no effect on the others, it simply is not possible.

 

[ianj99]

I have no problems with chipping getting more power from a certain engine. Engine manufacturers often design an engine for a maximum envisaged horsepower and detune it for added durability, better fuel economy and cleaner emissions from the zorst.

I do have problems seeing how to get more power with no effect on durability and with better fuel consumption.

More power equals more heat and more stress. Heat and stress have a major effect on the durability of an engine.

An engine is a machine that turns chemical energy into heat and motion.

To get more energy out, more energy has to be put in, therefore I cannot see how the claim for improved fuel consumption can hold true, especially in a marine situation when the engine is under load constantly.

More power ok - at the cost of durability, simply no alternative.

More power - at the cost of fuel consumption, no alternative.

More power at the cost of pollution, no alternative.

You cannot claim any side of the triangle has no effect on the others, it simply is not possible.

Engines are designed and specified for 'worst case' scenarios. The manufacturers must be conservative and allow for such unknowns as:
poor fuel
poor servicing
extremes of temperature
harsh operating conditions - marine use qualifies under this in many cases
and to minimise warranty claims and subsequent damage to their reputation.

Therefore there is a safety margin due to this over engineering which can be & is exploited for tuning. This has always been the case and engine tuning has been around as long as the IC engine.

Economy improvements are well documented on road vehicles due to combustion efficiency improvements and also reduction in rpm through less gearchanging thanks to higher torque. This is the case with petrol or diesel engines.

For marine use, I'd be wary about making economy claims and an adverse affect on the reliability if the extra torque was used continuously.

However there could still be a case for tuning if this helped a boat get on the plane more easily and the engine was then throttled back to normal cruising speed. The extra reserve of power being used for short periods 'to get out of trouble', for example.

Yes, using the extra torque will use more fuel and have all the other side effects you mention but so would fitting a larger engine. At least with tuning, when the extra performance isn't required the engine operates as standard.

To sum up:
If you want more speed, fit a bigger engine.

If you just want a bigger reserve of power to use in short bursts (like you do on the road for overtaking), tuning is a pefectly sensible & cost effective solution.

Ian

 

[tinkicker0]

Engines are designed and specified for 'worst case' scenarios. The manufacturers must be conservative and allow for such unknowns as:
poor fuel
poor servicing
extremes of temperature
harsh operating conditions - marine use qualifies under this in many cases
and to minimise warranty claims and subsequent damage to their reputation.

Therefore there is a safety margin due to this over engineering which can be & is exploited for tuning. This has always been the case and engine tuning has been around as long as the IC engine.

Economy improvements are well documented on road vehicles due to combustion efficiency improvements and also reduction in rpm through less gearchanging thanks to higher torque. This is the case with petrol or diesel engines.

For marine use, I'd be wary about making economy claims and an adverse affect on the reliability if the extra torque was used continuously.

However there could still be a case for tuning if this helped a boat get on the plane more easily and the engine was then throttled back to normal cruising speed. The extra reserve of power being used for short periods 'to get out of trouble', for example.

Yes, using the extra torque will use more fuel and have all the other side effects you mention but so would fitting a larger engine. At least with tuning, when the extra performance isn't required the engine operates as standard.

To sum up:
If you want more speed, fit a bigger engine.

If you just want a bigger reserve of power to use in short bursts (like you do on the road for overtaking), tuning is a pefectly sensible & cost effective solution.

Ian

Thanks for clearing that up Ian. I understand now about road vehicles. Due to the nature of the thread, my thinking was focused on marine engine usage characteristics.

I used to spanner for a motorcycle race team and one of the major problems we had with highly tuned, modified motors was getting rid of heat.

 

[ulyden]

Some comments: Chip tuning has been around for 25yers at last. BMW used an electronic pump (Bosch VP20) on the 2.4 litre diesel in 1985 and larger engines in ships had this feature earlier!

It’s no principal difference tuning an older mechanical engine and a el controlled engine!

It’s the principle using a 3 part increasing the power of an engine i have trouble with!

Nobody knows better what an engine can take of power than the builder!
If the builder want to give away a 160hp engine for the cost of an 110hp engine this can make sense in terms of less warranty claims and better reputation.

If somebody is chip tuning the 110hp version up to 160hp the builder has no warranty responsibility anyway!

It’s true that en boat engine is designed for 25deg sea water temperature and 35 or maybe 45degree inlet temperature. Modern engines have a possibility to derate but I think this is a ISO standard! If you are running the engine in north of Norway you have some margins on cooling!

But an diesel engine is always best when its new! After a while the compressor wheel are dirty the charge air cooler is fouled. The injectors are corroded and might be out of calibration, the high pressure pump might have wear. Valves might be leaking a bit. Blow by is increast. Coolers are fouled and sea water flow is reduced. There should be margins for this also! If you increase the power you have less margins!

 

[ianj99]

If somebody is chip tuning the 110hp version up to 160hp the builder has no warranty responsibility anyway!

You'd be mad to tune an engine, even a road vehicle one, by this much - almost 50%, even if it was possible. You'd be asking for problems very quickly.

However some manufacturers do detune the engine and then give you the option of paying a lot more for the more powerful & in reality, the standard, non detuned version.
We do some agricultural vehicle power upgrades - the identical vehicle but with the factory 'upgrade' costs £10K more, or under £500 from us.

I

 

[NEB]

The Volvo D3 is produced in many different versions,
11O Hp (this is the low rev version)
130 HP
160 HP
190 HP
and now should be available the new
220 HP
(all D3 models will soon(now) be replaced by a redesigned D3, but still called D3)

all the same 5 cyl blok, 2.4L

If you ask on the Volvo stand at LIBS they will confirm that the new D3 is available now at:
110 - shaft
140 - AQ
150 - shaft
170 - shaft
170 - AQ
200 - shaft
200 - AQ
220 - shaft
220 - AQ

The only similarity between the old and new D3 is the name and the fact they have 5 cylinders.
The old D3 has not been available since Dec 2009 unless there are a few kicking around dealers of boat builders.

 

[Fmicol]

The Volvo D3 is produced in many different versions,
11O Hp (this is the low rev version)
130 HP
160 HP
190 HP
and now should be available the new
220 HP
(all D3 models will soon(now) be replaced by a redesigned D3, but still called D3)

all the same 5 cyl blok, 2.4L

For a manufacturer it DOES make sense to develop one engine and make several versions, as they did with the D3, wich is in fact the same as the 5cyl 2.4 l car engine.
It really does make sense to use the same block, and have different versions, just by the chip tuning, Re developement cost, stocking cost, service...

we see exactly the same with products in my business, you buy a product, and just by paying some extra money, you get a code, to release some extra features.

I have been told by a Volvo engineer that the
130 and 160 are basically the same engines, just different chip, and that the 190 is basically the same as the 220

What surprises me from the specs of the tuning box, is that they can get the full 190 out of a 160,

while I found this:
tp://www.ziptuning.nl/boot/Volvo-Penta-D3-160-160pk.html#header

ziptuning really "reprograms" the orriginal engine chip, no add on box, they get only 180HP out of the 160HP engine.

but no real personal experience myself.

Hello,

i hown a Karnic 2460 fitted with a D3-160 please let me your experience of passing to 190HP wich will be better for this boat?

Many thanks
François

 

[penfold]

Cummins deliver a wide range of power outputs using the same basic engine; the QSB goes all the way from 125bhp up to nearly 500bhp. A Cummins technician said it's all done with a laptop, although I confess being sceptical that it could be done without changing injectors or other components to cover the range.

 

[BartW]

Hello,

i hown a Karnic 2460 fitted with a D3-160 please let me your experience of passing to 190HP wich will be better for this boat?

Many thanks
François

I have bought my K2660 new, fitted with 2 x D3-190,
so can't offer advice from own experience,

there is a mate on here RenéJK, he did the upgarde on his K2460 from D3-160 to D3-190.
I remember that the 160 was just on the edge for this boat,
I believe he was very satisfied with the upgrade,

I don't see a problem doing the tuning upgrade,
as this block can be delivered from the factory in a 190HP version.

 

[lanerboy]

i run my own business in the servicing and m.o.t. sector

i have seen lots of cars that have been destroyed through chipping

i know lots of people do it and their cars run fine but for the ones that dont its a very very expensive cost to repair

i know of a merc not long ago that was chipped only 12 months old c220d it blew up blowing the turbo the intercooler, radiator full exhaust system inc cat and dpf cost over 4K to fix and the merc dealer didnt want to know because it had been chipped

i would stay well clear of it and just run it as standard that would be my advise

 

[rafiki_]

I don't why some people think that you can do a better job in a back street shed than the original manufacturer with all their expertise, test cells, etc.

 

[Latestarter1]

Cummins deliver a wide range of power outputs using the same basic engine; the QSB goes all the way from 125bhp up to nearly 500bhp. A Cummins technician said it's all done with a laptop, although I confess being sceptical that it could be done without changing injectors or other components to cover the range.

Bit of a scattergun overview.

Two totally distinct CPL's

CPL 8064 Ratings from 225 though 375 variety of different rated speeds from 2,600 to 3,000 rpm and quite different duty cycles.

CPL 1860 Ratings from 420 to 472, one again different rated speeds up to 3,400 rpm with whole mass of performance part changes as well as cooling system upgrades, not to mention duty cycles.

You cannot download say a QSB 480 fuel rating 92132 off laptop into say a QSB 380. Common rail injectors lend themselves to different fuel ratings by virtue of simply altering the PWM signal, injector stays open longer. However life not as simple as that. All ratings have been properly optimised with the hardware.

#1 Tuning boxes simply change PWM signal length just leave the tap turned on a little longer. No regard for cylinder pressue.

If our guy with Volvo D3 160(157) is correctly propped i.e prop demanding maximum of 85% rated power @ rated speed, banging in extra 30 hp will do squat all!!! Propeller will be asking for 133.5 hp when vessel clean, regardless of engine having POTENTIAL to produce 157 or even 2,157 hp!

For zillonth time propellers move boats not engines................

 

[vas]

For zillonth time propellers move boats not engines................

Paul,

should put that in your sig and ask for a sticky on that topic as well

V.

 

[lynall]

Im a truck mech and am always amazed at the bhp available from such small diesel engines in boats, so would say they are close to their limit as std.
Most truck applications are at least half the bhp for the same size capacity boats bhp, which is strange as they probably have an easier life.
Ive chipped many a car/4x4 diesel and never got the promised extra mpg, but tbh i wanted the power


Lynall

 

[Latestarter1]

Im a truck mech and am always amazed at the bhp available from such small diesel engines in boats, so would say they are close to their limit as std.
Most truck applications are at least half the bhp for the same size capacity boats bhp, which is strange as they probably have an easier life.
Ive chipped many a car/4x4 diesel and never got the promised extra mpg, but tbh i wanted the power


Lynall

Lynall,

Little point in comparing on road diesel duty cycles with marine.

#1 High output marine diesel engines have benifit of sea water charge air cooling which gives you far greater pressure charging efficiency when compared with air to air CAC used in automotive applications.

#2 Marine diesel engines (RCD compliant) are very 'dirty' when compared with automotive applications. Gives you far more levers to pull when it comes to pulling reliable power from a given set of hardware.

If you look at Oxides of Nitrogen NOx RCD limit is 9.8 g/kWh Euro 5 automotive is 2.0 g/kWh......Euro 6 limit is 0.04 gramms!

RCD limit on particulates PM is 1.0 g/kWh, automotive Euro 5 is 0.02 g/kWh and Euro 6 is 0.01.

If you go after NOx you can release a heap more power from a diesel engine and because it is an oderless colourless gas who will find out, impossible to measure outside engine test cell, which is why EU is working away in background to ban chip tuning.

 

[oldgit]

i know of a merc not long ago that was chipped only 12 months old c220d it blew up blowing the turbo the intercooler, radiator full exhaust system inc cat and dpf cost over 4K to fix and the merc dealer didnt want to know because it had been chipped

i would stay well clear of it and just run it as standard that would be my advise[/QUOTE]

Gearbox company next to us declines to repair auto boxes damaged by chipping due to extent of damage..Cheaper to buy replacement S/H unit.
Mainly Audi/Merc/BMW.

 

[[2068]]

On the VXR forums, several of the Vectras have been modified in some way, but simply chipping seems to get big midrange gains, and not much at the top end, without a bigger turbo, radiator, air cooler, etc. which all gets expensive.

i.e. the system as originally designed was balanced for the original power output, give or take 20hp.

Only one seems to have had a disastrous failure (conrod exited through rear of block), but most upgrades seem reliable, given the odd amber warning light here and there. Still keeping mine standard, though.