Tranona
Well-Known Member
avesmarine.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI576c0Zay7wIVjO7tCh3VRgUhEAAYASAAEgIdk_D_BwE
But I doubt you will see them in a chandler near you . Very crowded market.
Chinese autopilots
- Thread starter Perrycas
- Start date
But I doubt you will see them in a chandler near you . Very crowded market.
TernVI
Well-Known Member
Compared with space military or airliner avionics, yacht autopilots are cheap consumer junk.
The Chinese are pretty competent at the high end space, military, avionics stuff, they understand the requirements as well as anyone else and have lots of miles on the clock.
China's involvement in yachting is increasing, but their idea of getting involved seems to be more along the lines of buying shares in companies like Sunseeker.
Hong Kong has a great yachting tradition, but AIUI, for many years private leisure boat ownership in most of China baiscally didn't happen. I've worked with Chinese engineers who were quite surprised that an ordinary engineer like myself needed to leave work promptly on a Wednesday to go racing.
My guess is that a new far-eastern range of consumer yacht autopilots is more likely to come from Vietnam, Malaysia or Korea. But actually it's the kind of product where the design can be done anywhere and all the manufacture contracted out. A small UK company could do the design and never physically touch the product apart from prototypes.
But TBH, if i wanted a cheap autopilot, I'd probably build my own.
ip485
Well-Known Member
From my experience you are right in the first part, but if you dont take an interest after the protypes you will be on very dangerous ground. Consistency from prototype to production is far from a given, and consistency in the production line, is even further from a given.
The client I referred to earlier got to the point of reasonable and consistent quality. Within three shipments that was all out the window, with most of the product failing quality controls, and this was only 18 months ago, and before Covid I might add.
Production has all been moved elsewhere. It has been tough, especially with Covid, but I can honestly say the price is now better, and quality is 100% better - whether it will last remains to be seen. The point is, on the whole other people can actually do the manufacturing, and as a more general point, China does need to realise they need to make much more effort, there are others in the world fast catching up, and in many cases already caught up.
Realistically there is also a trend to diversify manufacturing markets with what has gone on in recent times. It reminds me of the line from Top Gun (cheesy!) but I feel China needs to realise they need to do this stuff better and cleaner than the other guys, because they are breathing down their necks.
My last word! Sorry to go one, but I hate seeing people wasting their money.
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
I don't particularly want to see Western companies undercut and undermined, and jobs lost.
But I also don't want to see yachties taken for fools and forced to pay through the nose for substandard products.
Webasto and Eberspacher had the heater market to themselves for decades, selling units manufactured in China but sold for about eight times the cost that the Chinese now sell them at, having copied the technology and cut out the middle man. (You can argue with some truth that the clones are not as well built, but the difference is nowhere near enough to account for the price difference).
Webasto and Eberspacher were also found guilty of price fixing and had to pay millions of Euros in fines. So I have no ethical problem in not buying their products.
Tillerpilots could be the next product in the spotlight. The ones we have available are simply not good enough. No end-stop switches to prevent the motor from trying to keep running after max travel has been reached. Plastic gears and flimsy belts, poor waterproofing. You don't get much for your £400.
I do not expect that the Chinese would make better units. But if they can make a cordless drill for £20, they can probably make a tillerpilot for similar money. Electronics have moved on, accelerometers and compasses made for smartphones cost almost nothing. Perhaps make the whole control unit a smartphone and connect it by bluetooth- bingo, no more water ingress problems.
It wouldn't have to be perfect, it would just have to cost £50, provide basic functionality, and last a season or two. But I guess the market is too small so we won't see this any time soon.
But I also don't want to see yachties taken for fools and forced to pay through the nose for substandard products.
Webasto and Eberspacher had the heater market to themselves for decades, selling units manufactured in China but sold for about eight times the cost that the Chinese now sell them at, having copied the technology and cut out the middle man. (You can argue with some truth that the clones are not as well built, but the difference is nowhere near enough to account for the price difference).
Webasto and Eberspacher were also found guilty of price fixing and had to pay millions of Euros in fines. So I have no ethical problem in not buying their products.
Tillerpilots could be the next product in the spotlight. The ones we have available are simply not good enough. No end-stop switches to prevent the motor from trying to keep running after max travel has been reached. Plastic gears and flimsy belts, poor waterproofing. You don't get much for your £400.
I do not expect that the Chinese would make better units. But if they can make a cordless drill for £20, they can probably make a tillerpilot for similar money. Electronics have moved on, accelerometers and compasses made for smartphones cost almost nothing. Perhaps make the whole control unit a smartphone and connect it by bluetooth- bingo, no more water ingress problems.
It wouldn't have to be perfect, it would just have to cost £50, provide basic functionality, and last a season or two. But I guess the market is too small so we won't see this any time soon.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Chinese isn't a brand so hard to say. Brands based in China, maybe but probably not because they are not targetting our market generally. In other industries we do see this though. The diesel heaters on Amazon are brands based in China, and seem to be doing very well. Unfortunately that seems to mostly be direct sales so support can be problematic due to distance and language. LifePO4 prismatic cells are a good example with local distribution in Europe and support is better there.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
This is a dead market. The simple reason the products that are available are so poor and out of date is because the size of the market does not warrant any expenditure on new products. Hardly any cruising boats for which these products are suitable have been built in the last 30 years - wheel steering is now almost universal. Products have a life cycle. Tiller pilots date from the late 1970s (40 years ago!)and have barely changed since then. There was a huge market of 20+ years production of tiller steered cruising boats in the 24-32' range crying out for some form of autopilot. By the 90s that was essentially satisfied (the last time any updating was done) so the residual sales come from replacements. There was never an OE market , only essentially a DIY market. Much the same with the wheel pilots, initially the belt drive and then wheel drive. These were designed for DIY retrofit of existing wheel steered boats. This product has also (in terms of the mechanical bits) not been changed for more than 10 years except in detail and is now only a replacement market.
Contrast that with the underdeck pilots which have seen massive development in the last 20 years driven by volume as it has now become virtually standard fit on all new cruising boats. So we now have several competing products and continuous development, and fortunately the much smaller retrofit or replacement market can benefit from most of this development.
Put your self in the position of the manufacturer, or indeed a potential new entrant. Where would you put your development money?
Dellquay13
Well-Known Member
a UK distributor and retailer who only retails the one brand.
if they have a good stock of spares and an efficient warranty repair service , it is a start for good customer care.
Dellquay13
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
But TBH, if i wanted a cheap autopilot, I'd probably build my own.
[/QUOTE]
This might be the best route if you have the means, rebuild a failed or donor unit to the specs and quality you want. motor end stops and quality seals wouldn't be difficult as a starter, better cables and plugs too.
if the industry isn't interested in yesterdays technology, then it could be down to the people who have the need to find the answer to a quality cheap tiller pilot.
But TBH, if i wanted a cheap autopilot, I'd probably build my own.
[/QUOTE]
This might be the best route if you have the means, rebuild a failed or donor unit to the specs and quality you want. motor end stops and quality seals wouldn't be difficult as a starter, better cables and plugs too.
if the industry isn't interested in yesterdays technology, then it could be down to the people who have the need to find the answer to a quality cheap tiller pilot.
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ip485
Well-Known Member
I dont think this is just about price.
Of course we dont want to be over charged.
Equally I would rather pay more in the knowledge of receiving the support, warranty care etc.
With a lot of this stuff the real cost isnt in the actual item, but in the installation. It is all very well saving even £100 here or there, but if, after six months, it has to come out again, you are endlessly waiting for repairs, and / or there are all sorts of warranty issues, in the long run it will prove far far more costly.
We all tend to forget this important lesson because of course we are easily lulled by the immediate gratification of what seems like very good value. Sometimes it is, but there is another good saying, if it seems to good to be true, it almost certainly is.
Of course we dont want to be over charged.
Equally I would rather pay more in the knowledge of receiving the support, warranty care etc.
With a lot of this stuff the real cost isnt in the actual item, but in the installation. It is all very well saving even £100 here or there, but if, after six months, it has to come out again, you are endlessly waiting for repairs, and / or there are all sorts of warranty issues, in the long run it will prove far far more costly.
We all tend to forget this important lesson because of course we are easily lulled by the immediate gratification of what seems like very good value. Sometimes it is, but there is another good saying, if it seems to good to be true, it almost certainly is.
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
Oh, I thought this was the PBO forum. I have never paid somebody to do any work on any of the boats I own.
It's mostly about money, partly about availability of people to do the work, but also about the mindset that if I fit it, I can fix it.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
it is located in an agricultural/ residential area, next to a cattery and kennels in Lanarkshire - hardly the centre of the boating world. According to the website, It has no demonstration facilities on site. All the popular products, which are at least 2 generations old in technology are on special offer at reduced prices.
The small amount of feedback so far on the products does not inspire confidence.
TernVI
Well-Known Member
Everything is about volume.
IT costs a lot of money to design something, productionise it, get it approved to all the relevant standards.
You can spend a million quid on a minor product before it hits the market very easily.
Easy to recover that over a million units, or if you can sell 10 units to the MoD for a bargain £500k each.
It's the middle ground which is difficult, getting your money back on say 10k units before the competition hots up and the profit evaporates.
People are also resistant to buying cheap or unknown brands for leisure stuff, unless it's very cheap.
You could probably knock thousands off the value of a yacht by fitting Kung Po instruments.
Dellquay13
Well-Known Member
and no landline, only a mobile phone
westernman
Well-Known Member
Have a look here how Chinese map data matches up with satellite imagery:-
Google Earth
This is the Shenzhen end of the bridge from Hong Kong to Shenzhen (mainland China).
China manipulates its satellite signals to give false readings. I understand that their satnav software in cares has bent maps to compensate!
So be careful that the charts you use correspond to the satellites you use.
Google Earth
This is the Shenzhen end of the bridge from Hong Kong to Shenzhen (mainland China).
China manipulates its satellite signals to give false readings. I understand that their satnav software in cares has bent maps to compensate!
So be careful that the charts you use correspond to the satellites you use.
Perrycas
Well-Known Member
Perrycas
Well-Known Member
I couldnt help thinking of the discussion I had with my friendly mechanic doing a reg inspection yesterday. He was telling me of a customer whose Merc he serviced who complained because he hadn't charged him the same as the Mercedes centre, where he expected to pay 3 times the price.
He went on to tell me of a discussion with a Hummer parts supplier (you have to buy after market on these as GM no longer support them) who told him that if he didnt charge the max possible he was 'letting the side down'. People who buy big name products apparently WANT to have their status cravings satisfied.
Hmm, mechanic also went on to talk about the rubbish quality of the fuel pump on the Chinese Audi he had just worked on.
Who wouldn't agree with such hopes for tiller pilots? Thinking back to the 'impact resistant' drive cog on the Autohelm 3000 ( I think thats what model it was) that lasted 4 days at sea on a reasonably well balanced boat. We need and deserve a Corolla equivalent Autopilot.
garymalmgren
Well-Known Member
We need and deserve a Corolla equivalent Autopilot.
I second that
I second that
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
If anyone with tiller steering want an indestructible tiller pilot, that will steer the boat in the very worst of conditions, without little plastic cogs and the like, there are already several options on the market. You'd need some minimal PBO skills to fit it and it would last forever.
Choose the electronics core pack from your favourite manufacturer, they all make one. You'll have a nice little screen to control it from (it will even integrate with your MFD, if from the same manufacturer, some will even have a remote control as an option), fit the ACU and heading sensor down below. This is the "proper" kit that you get with a below decks autopilot.
All you need now is the bit that does the steering, the "drive". If you have some accessible rudder shaft below deck you can fit a short tiller arm (available from stock from the likes of Jefa), then you fit an off the shelf drive unit, the exact specifics of which will vary from boat to boat (same as it does with all under deck installations).
If there is no below deck rudder shaft accessible, you'll need your PBO skills, or pay someone to do it. I'd suggest hydraulics would be the way to go. Do you have room under the tiller to permanently fit a small hydraulic ram ? Only needs to be about 250mm from the rudder shaft centre to the pin for the ram. If not, you'll need to make a quick release widget to fix the ram to the top of the tiller arm and some way of folding the ram out of the way and securing it. It would be impractical to completely remove the ram, due to fluid leaks. If it wasn't too intrusive you could leave it in place permanently, be a good move to cover it up when not in use.
It might even be possible (depending on the boat again) to make a fitting that goes on the top of the tiller arm and sticks out the back, then mount the ram on the transom, or thereabouts.
Choose the electronics core pack from your favourite manufacturer, they all make one. You'll have a nice little screen to control it from (it will even integrate with your MFD, if from the same manufacturer, some will even have a remote control as an option), fit the ACU and heading sensor down below. This is the "proper" kit that you get with a below decks autopilot.
All you need now is the bit that does the steering, the "drive". If you have some accessible rudder shaft below deck you can fit a short tiller arm (available from stock from the likes of Jefa), then you fit an off the shelf drive unit, the exact specifics of which will vary from boat to boat (same as it does with all under deck installations).
If there is no below deck rudder shaft accessible, you'll need your PBO skills, or pay someone to do it. I'd suggest hydraulics would be the way to go. Do you have room under the tiller to permanently fit a small hydraulic ram ? Only needs to be about 250mm from the rudder shaft centre to the pin for the ram. If not, you'll need to make a quick release widget to fix the ram to the top of the tiller arm and some way of folding the ram out of the way and securing it. It would be impractical to completely remove the ram, due to fluid leaks. If it wasn't too intrusive you could leave it in place permanently, be a good move to cover it up when not in use.
It might even be possible (depending on the boat again) to make a fitting that goes on the top of the tiller arm and sticks out the back, then mount the ram on the transom, or thereabouts.
