Check your PFD!

Mea Culpa, apart from orally inflating my lifejackets and re-packing them, I was guilty of neglect. Following a discussion with a fellow scuttlebutteer, I had all four out and down, replacing the gas bottles and out of curiosity more than anything else, fired one off. It inflated as per expectations, then collapsed as the airbag split. I've got two new ones as a result (I don't sail with more than one crew these days). I certainly didn't blame Crewsaver. Life jackets, however good, do not last for ever....and all the zips on my kit get a wash off and lanolin lubrication at least once a year. Metal zips and salt water are a bad mixture and even plastic ones get gummed up.
 
Venus1 said:
I would be interested to see the arrangement of carrying those essentials on the belt. I would like to do that, but it seems to me that when the L J inflates, it makes the belt things inaccessible. I have not tried this in the water, but have seen people with inflated jackets and they could not see their belts, making deployment difficult. (I have the spinlock belt pouch which may be slightly better, but restrictive on deck..)
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The items are on simple belt loop attachments.

If you have never tried working with a LJ n the water, try it. You very quickly find out what’s practical, accessible and useable.
 
It is interesting to note that most of the comments that say that this is user fault come from commercial operators or safety experts.
These devices are designed for leisure users who are neither. There is a duty on the manufacturers to create products that are fit for purpose. Fitting this kind of zip is unsuitable regardless of what is put into it and they should be well aware of this.

Yes we should check our stuff but we should not be expected to have to perform a forensic analysis or scrutinise a marine product from a recognised manufacturer prior to purchase to see if it is fit for a marine environment. It just should be.

The manufacturer has some questions to answer here.
 
Homer J said:
It is interesting to note that most of the comments that say that this is user fault come from commercial operators or safety experts.
These devices are designed for leisure users who are neither. There is a duty on the manufacturers to create products that are fit for purpose. Fitting this kind of zip is unsuitable regardless of what is put into it and they should be well aware of this.

Yes we should check our stuff but we should not be expected to have to perform a forensic analysis or scrutinise a marine product from a recognised manufacturer prior to purchase to see if it is fit for a marine environment. It just should be.

The manufacturer has some questions to answer here.
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Well said.
 
LadyInBed said:
Fair point. For me, Velcro is the fastening of choice.
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I tend to disagree. I hate the stuff. It catches on ones gloves, cuffs etc & each item pulls on the other. Before you know it the pouch would be open, or the velcro would be full of belly button fluff & then the strap would not shut properly.
That would take a while, I accept, but still a pain.

Whilst we are on the subject of carrying emergency stuff I found (after reading the instructions 3 months after purchase) that my personal emergency beacon (from Ocean) will not float . So although it is attached to a lanyard, if I just loose concentration & drop the darned thing it will sink & stop operating. My older, but now un-serviceable, Mc Murdo would at least float away from me & direct the rescue helicopter to the nearest shark's stomach..
 
I am no safety expert or professional, but it would assist greatly if we knew the make and model and if BA or LJ.
 
Homer J said:
It is interesting to note that most of the comments that say that this is user fault come from commercial operators or safety experts.
These devices are designed for leisure users who are neither. There is a duty on the manufacturers to create products that are fit for purpose. Fitting this kind of zip is unsuitable regardless of what is put into it and they should be well aware of this.

Yes we should check our stuff but we should not be expected to have to perform a forensic analysis or scrutinise a marine product from a recognised manufacturer prior to purchase to see if it is fit for a marine environment. It just should be.

The manufacturer has some questions to answer here.
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As somebody who works in the world of safety can I draw to your attention ALARP [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALARP ]. Did the manufacturer intend for a PLB to be stored long term in a zipped pocket, I strongly suspect not. Clearly they have seen that "in use" there is a risk of the zip failing and have, quite rightly, mitigated the risk by replacing it with a material that is less likely to jam, but as we all know can (usually as you hurry to have a pee).

I have a Crewsaver LJ with a "pocket with zip" on the front left side and was quite firmly told this is not for a PLB as, on inflation you won't be able to access it. To date it is unused but a bar of chocolate might fit in there for a long cold night watch between Shetland and the Faroe's in the next few year.
 
Homer J said:
It is interesting to note that most of the comments that say that this is user fault come from commercial operators or safety experts.
These devices are designed for leisure users who are neither. There is a duty on the manufacturers to create products that are fit for purpose. Fitting this kind of zip is unsuitable regardless of what is put into it and they should be well aware of this.

Yes we should check our stuff but we should not be expected to have to perform a forensic analysis or scrutinise a marine product from a recognised manufacturer prior to purchase to see if it is fit for a marine environment. It just should be.

The manufacturer has some questions to answer here.
Click to expand...

I agree a product should be fit for purpose, but the user also has a responsibility. The OP admits he knew metal zips (probably) wouldn't be suitable for a marine environment but still brought the product and then came here to complain it failed.

The fact that this is a leisure user is irrelevant, if you were a leisure parachute jumper would you check your kit before a jump or not bother because it's not work?

The OP admits to knowing there might be an issue and the issue arises and he blames the manufacturer for their product which he purchased! As said a simple little maintance with Vasoline or wax would have prevented this.

PW
 
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PilotWolf said:
I agree a product should be fit for purpose, but the user also has a responsibility. The OP admits he knew metal zips (probably) wouldn't be suitable for a marine environment but still brought the product and then came here to complain it failed.

The fact that this is a leisure user is irrelevant, if you were a leisure parachute jumper would you check your kit before a jump or not bother because it's not work?

The OP admits to knowing there might be an issue and the issue arises and he blames the manufacturer for their product which he purchased! As said a simple little maintance with Vasoline or wax would have prevented this.

PW
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“The OP admits..... wouldn’t be suitable”. As manufactured by a Marine manufacturer and the user is at fault?...?..


Are you serious???
 
My PLB is attached to the oral inflation tube, as the zipped pocket on the front of the LJ is not easily accessible when the LJ is inflated. I did consider attaching it to the belt but ruled that out for various reasons at the time.
 
Homer J said:
“The OP admits..... wouldn’t be suitable”. As manufactured by a Marine manufacturer and the user is at fault?...?..


Are you serious???
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Yes 110%, I've used metal zips at sea with suitable care and not had a problem. If he was aware of potential issues and still chose to purchase and then use it for a safety critical need then it's is totally on him. No one presumably forced him to buy it.

The manufacture didn't I assume offer any warranty on the zip, nor suggests that pocket be used for safety equipment storage? Does the PFD have a label stating this is a PLB pocket? I very much doubt it.

Take responsibility for your life and stop trying to blame others - really not that difficult!

PW.
 
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I think we will have to disagree. By logical extension your argument suggests that people shouldn’t expect manufacturers to be responsible for producing safe products.

When you bought your lawn mower did you turn it upside down and check the blade was sufficiently attached?
 
Homer J said:
I think we will have to disagree. By logical extension your argument suggests that people shouldn’t expect manufacturers to be responsible for producing safe products.

When you bought your lawn mower did you turn it upside down and check the blade was sufficiently attached?
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No but I turned it upside down to take the protective wrapping off so i was able to see it was Ok at the same time :encouragement:
Would have been well out of balance if I had not done so- pretty obvious really. :ambivalence:
 
Homer J said:
I think we will have to disagree. By logical extension your argument suggests that people shouldn’t expect manufacturers to be responsible for producing safe products.

When you bought your lawn mower did you turn it upside down and check the blade was sufficiently attached?
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The product is not unsafe, the way he chooses to use it maybe. Likewise although I don't have a lawnmower I would certainly check it before use, In the same way as I check the oil water on my vehicles on a regular basis.

W
 
zulloboy said:
My PFD (which is out of warranty) was recently superseded by a new model which has - guess what! - a plastic (ie non-corroding) slider.
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I assume you have contacted the manufacturer before contacting trading standards and given them the opportunity of replacing it? There is an awful lot of effort gone into complaining here on the forum .. you might find a simple email and photograph would have yielded a favourable response and a new PFD?
 
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This will be my last response to this thread, with a few points to respond to various things written.

1. The vendor was advised in detail before I contacted the authority. They did not offer a replacement (nor did I ask, having told them it was out of warranty), but offered cut price on a new one. I suppose I could have blackmailed them, but that's not me.
2. As per my post, the vendor’s user manual prominently labelled the pocket “Personal Epirb”
3. Two of the vendor’s senior product rep's responded positively to my questions in person at a prior sailing promo event re PLB storage in the pocket.
4. The vendor now advises against such use of pocket
5. The vendor has changed from a metallic to non-metallic zip on the pocket
6. The metal zip is not ALARP – plastic zippers are better but velcro is probably about as ALARP as you can get for this function, unless there is some other closure I am unaware of. The vendor did not choose the lowest-risk component. I do understand ALARP, having designed and audited many safety shutdown systems for major onshore and offshore hydrocarbon facilities. How long I may have kept the PLB in the pocket, and whether I am as incompetent as implied by some, is totally irrelevant to the ALARP considerations and the vendor's responsibilities.
7. I tested access to the pocket when I tested the PFD by jumping into the water with it on before replacing the old auto cartridge (as I do with all my PFD’s). I found that adding a short lanyard to the pocket made it easily accessible with the PFD deployed. I specifically chose a PFD with accessible PLB storage and discussed this in detail with the vendor's rep, after experimenting with retrieving my PLB from a jacket pocket (almost impossible) while in the water.
8. As per my earlier post, the zipper was operable about 4 weeks before the failure, during which time it was used in a few dry day-sails and stored in a well ventilated cabin.

Thanks to those who have responded positively.

Cheers, Graeme
 
zulloboy said:
This will be my last response to this thread, with a few points to respond to various things written.

1. The vendor was advised in detail before I contacted the authority. They did not offer a replacement (nor did I ask, having told them it was out of warranty), but offered cut price on a new one.
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Oh, out of warranty ... so how old is this? I was assuming from your post it was quite new (less than a year) ...

Also, you mention that a few weeks prior to this, you tested it by jumping into the sea. What did you do to service it before putting it back in to use?
 
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rszemeti said:
Oh, out of warranty ... so how old is this? I was assuming from your post it was quite new (less than a year) ...
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My thoughts too and from the link by coopec, the LJ is "...well out of warranty."

Funny how he named it on the other thread but not this one.
 
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