Cheap hulls & weather forcasts?

The main problem I see does come from using convenient labels to describe things. The use of the word "Ocean" is a good example. It is used in the categories because it is the next thing up from "Offshore".

However, people attach their own meaning to the words and then use them as value statements. If you are equating "Ocean" to mean rounding Cape Horn in bad weather then this is a misuse of the word - most of the worlds Oceans are nothing like that. Indeed if you read some of the accounts of bad weather in coastal of continental shelf waters they can be just as bad as open water heavy weather - indeed potentially worse because of the proximity of land.

The vast majority of cruisers will never experience severe conditions, partly because they plan their passages to avoid them. So why have a boat that is at its best (comparatively) in such conditions? The boat that is not at its best in those conditions may be uncomfortable, but is unlikely to fail and usually has features that make it much more suitable for cruising and living comfortably on board for the other 99% of the time.

So, if you don't go seeking extreme conditions, why choose a boat that is heavy and cramped (as many are in the affordable sizes) "just in case"?

If, however you are a Skip Novak type then you need a boat like his to do the things he does. But that is not the world of the average cruiser!
 
Tranona said:
So why have a boat that is at its best (comparatively) in such conditions?

So, if you don't go seeking extreme conditions, why choose a boat that is heavy and cramped
Click to expand...

Because sometimes they look like this

:)

Granted this does not fall into the affordable category we are talking about here, so I'm not being serious. I used to walk by Sine Die ( the one in the second photo to load) every day in Palma last year. She never failed to get me lusting for her.
 
Last edited:
Errrrrrr?

Somone askd why chose a boat thats heavy and cramped and you suggest that sometimes they look like an Oyster 46?

I am not sure of what benchmark we are using any more. She is definately not in the heavy or cramped class. Suggest you read the blurb from Oyster from the page you posted.......

The Oyster 46 is .......lighter, stronger and stiffer than her predecessors......open layout ..........wide cockpit........etc

Listen, I love older looking boats. If I could have anything to sail around on it would probably be a Spirit 100. But I'd not go cruising on it.

But glad we both agree we'd go cruising on an Oyster 46 - provided we could afford one of those also.

Cheers
JOHN
 
Swagman said:
Somone askd why chose a boat thats heavy and cramped and you suggest that sometimes they look like an Oyster 46?



But glad we both agree we'd go cruising on an Oyster 46 - provided we could afford one of those also.

Cheers
JOHN
Click to expand...
As I said, I wasn't being serious. It's more of a tongue in cheek thread drift to what I would really like;)

Affordability aside I think it's a great compromise, combining quality build and modern features. I also like the skeg hung rudder and keel stepped mast.
 
Last edited:
Everybody likes to look down on somebody else to make themselves feel better, like prison populations and sex offenders. Another example is yachties and mobo'ers. Doesn't matter if the reason for doing it is well founded or not. In the case of those with "proper" boats looking down on those with BenJenBav boats, on balance, I don't think it is, if that makes sense...
 
Everyone seems to say that the modern light boat is ideal for life in a marina. I would agree with that in Summer, but now when the wind is howling I long for an older boat again rather than my Beneteau. The chop slaps under the stern, the warps creak all night long and she heels with every gust, not conducive to a good night's sleep.

I used to dream of the day when I could afford a Jongert or Nordia, solid steel boats with the aft great cabin windows. It never happened of course and never will, so at least I can afford my Beneteau or a Bavaria which is why most of us buy them. They are amazing value for money. In 1970 when my old Moody built 36ft boat was built, she cost £17,000, more than the average house.
 
I am a satisfied bavaria owner but:
A Bavaria 38 has RCD category A Ocean but would not pass the stability requirements needed for coding for commercial use in area 0 and 1. It passes for category 2 - up to 60 miles from a safe haven. Larger boats with the same AVS would get 0 and 1 coding because in the MCA view size matters. The longer the boat the lower the acceptable AVS. I think most of the Bav, Jen, Ben in the ARC were 45ft+
Why the MCA agreed to the RCD for pleasure yachts whilst maintaining different standards for charter and sailing schools is I suspect political. Commercial boats do tend to sail in all weathers, all seasons and to time schedules but it does give me pause for thought. I would take my boat with minor mods on a transatlantic circuit but not into the southern ocean or the north atlantic in winter.
 
gavin_lacey said:
I am a satisfied bavaria owner but:
A Bavaria 38 has RCD category A Ocean but would not pass the stability requirements needed for coding for commercial use in area 0 and 1. It passes for category 2 - up to 60 miles from a safe haven. Larger boats with the same AVS would get 0 and 1 coding because in the MCA view size matters. The longer the boat the lower the acceptable AVS. I think most of the Bav, Jen, Ben in the ARC were 45ft+
Why the MCA agreed to the RCD for pleasure yachts whilst maintaining different standards for charter and sailing schools is I suspect political. Commercial boats do tend to sail in all weathers, all seasons and to time schedules but it does give me pause for thought. I would take my boat with minor mods on a transatlantic circuit but not into the southern ocean or the north atlantic in winter.
Click to expand...

Think this illustrates the problem of relying on formulaic measures. The concentration on AVS is a reaction to specific incidents when it was an issue. However, if you look at most of the yachts that are historically held up as good ocean going designs, many would not get into Category B (and some including mine even into C). An example would be the Maurice Griffiths designed Golden Hind which at one time was the most popular affordable ocean cruiser with over 40 circumnavigations to its credit. It needed a lot of work to eventually get into Cat A. Why was it so successful? Because it was available and did the job - so people bought it and went off sailing!

Now, of course such a boat is not so desirable as people can afford much bigger and more sophisticated designs. Regulations of sorts have crept in, but individuals still make their own decisions about what sort of boat they need for a particular job, and I am not sure the finer details of AVS etc really have that much influence on the decision. However, what the RDC has done is raise the overall standard of design and build so that current boats are infinitely better designed and built than many (but not of course all) in the past.
 
I am very pleased to see a vast improvement in the way the forum has, here...

...handled this issue.

Far from the (often seemingly) ignorant rants on this topic of previous years (made available by a friend) a well balanced presentation of various views has been laid down, with which from my own experience (since 1978) of diverse boats, charter and "posh" I heartily concur*

Chas

* Hope that doesn't sound pompous? I was just passing by the computer and couldn't resist a dabble (whilst consuming an excessive extra "feta" of Long Clawston Stilton to accompany the last half glass of Casillero del Diablo Cab-Sauv
 
Well for my two pennies worth...
Like many others here, I've taught a lot using Bavarias and love em for that, they are great fun to sail and can be put through their paces as much as many other boats. They are quick too and yes, they fall apart, but so do most boats when pushed to the limits or sailed for any length of time (we spend an inordinate amount of time putting things back together and our boat is as solid as they come - everyone does, whatever they say). As to using one as a liveaboard, well it really depends on what you want to do with it. For me, swept back spreaders, a bolt on keel, a light build and displacement are not for me. More for practical reasons than any, I like the more comfortable motion of a heavy boat, we do a lot of downwind sailing, so prefer straight spreaders and am grateful of the ability to go aground without too much damage when pushing the limits. Our boat has been around the Horn several times and to all sorts of tricksy spots, but if you arent going there, theres no reason at all to have a boat suited to those conditions. More important to me would be to find a boat that you can make home - perhaps going for the 'owners' version rather than 'charter', the main reason being, you spend so much time just sitting around at anchor, you want to be comfortable. If you aren't pushing the envelope, then spend why not spend less on the boat and more making it comfortable (proper mattresses, bikes, decent tanks etc)
We had an Arpege once and, to be honest, it would have more than coped with 80% of the cruising we have done. Not to say I would prefer it due to the reasons above, but most boats can do most things and Bavs are no exception.
As of Bavarias, my fave was the 44. It always seemed much more solid than the others and seemed to sail really well, but beggars...as ever....
 
Foxy said:
only £9.63!! am intrigued by Nassau.... tell me more!
Click to expand...

Apologies for the thread drift........but there is a fantastic parade on the 31st. Huge all night carnival, we went on the 31st but I think there may be one earlier as well.

Some pics here. (Scroll down the the Junkanoo bit). Highly recommended. If you go, you will never forget the Junkanoo rhythm, totally infectious.
 
CharlesSwallow said:
...handled this issue.

Far from the (often seemingly) ignorant rants on this topic of previous years (made available by a friend) a well balanced presentation of various views has been laid down, with which from my own experience (since 1978) of diverse boats, charter and "posh" I heartily concur*

Chas

* Hope that doesn't sound pompous? I was just passing by the computer and couldn't resist a dabble (whilst consuming an excessive extra "feta" of Long Clawston Stilton to accompany the last half glass of Casillero del Diablo Cab-Sauv
Click to expand...

Your friend S C--nnin had a very poorly built Baveria, who`s hatches leaked from the begining and the winches needed changing. He told people on here that he owned it outright , when it in fact it was in charter managment via Chris Hawes .and Kirrculis . That IMO does not make all Baverias bad.Or his, as Baveria changed thing for him and I think he was very happy in the end .If ever S C could be happy.

Merry Xmas

bobt
 
Last edited:
Isn't it true though that the "proper" GRP boats handling better in heavy weather, etc. due to their overbuilding is more by accident than by design because not that much was known about GRP as a material for use in boat building? And that (luckily for us) means that partly because GRP is such a good boat building material, we now have a choice of boat depending what we want to use it for, how much cash we have, etc.

If more was known about the qualities of GRP as a boat building material would so many "proper" boats have been built so heavily in the first place?

For me with what is a relatively small budget I felt I was getting better value for money and a boat more suited to my needs and tastes getting the boat I ended up with (Jeanneau Sundream 28) than spending the same money, say, on an older Westerly. Just personal choice and I don't feel inclined to see myself in competition with someone else because they have a different style of boat...
 
djbreeze said:
Isn't it true though that the "proper" GRP boats handling better in heavy weather, etc. due to their overbuilding is more by accident than by design because not that much was known about GRP as a material for use in boat building? And that (luckily for us) means that partly because GRP is such a good boat building material, we now have a choice of boat depending what we want to use it for, how much cash we have, etc.

If more was known about the qualities of GRP as a boat building material would so many "proper" boats have been built so heavily in the first place?

For me with what is a relatively small budget I felt I was getting better value for money and a boat more suited to my needs and tastes getting the boat I ended up with (Jeanneau Sundream 28) than spending the same money, say, on an older Westerly. Just personal choice and I don't feel inclined to see myself in competition with someone else because they have a different style of boat...
Click to expand...

This is true in part, but it's not just the GRP. The interior fittings and joinery are much more substantial and add to the overall displacement and stiffness of the boat. But you are correct in that in the early days of GRP production boats, the GRP was in some instances over engineered. (Although there are those who would argue that a few have now gone too far the other way!) There are now boats to suit all needs and pockets. It's a good thing.
 
jonic said:
This is true in part, but it's not just the GRP. The interior fittings and joinery are much more substantial and add to the overall displacement and stiffness of the boat. But you are correct in that in the early days of GRP production boats, the GRP was in some instances over engineered. (Although there are those who would argue that a few have now gone too far the other way!) There are now boats to suit all needs and pockets. It's a good thing.
Click to expand...

Yes, my boats 20 years old & I could see daylight through the hull when we took off some of the old linings, do they put more pigment in the new ones so light can't get through I wonder...
I was on a Rival 38 for a couple of weeks and it amazes me that my boat (at nearly 30 feet) only weighs about a third of that...
 
Sorry Bob but

1bobt said:
Your friend S C--nnin had a very poorly built Baveria, who`s hatches leaked from the begining and the winches needed changing. He told people on here that he owned it outright , when it in fact it was in charter managment via Chris Hawes .and Kirrculis . That IMO does not make all Baverias bad.Or his, as Baveria changed thing for him and I think he was very happy in the end .If ever S C could be happy.

Merry Xmas

bobt
Click to expand...

I won't engage in anything of a personal nature with you or anyone else on a commercial internet forum, especially when it involves the personal affairs of a friend.

Hope you had a good Christmas too.

Chas
 
djbreeze said:
Yes, my boats 20 years old & I could see daylight through the hull when we took off some of the old linings, do they put more pigment in the new ones so light can't get through I wonder...
I was on a Rival 38 for a couple of weeks and it amazes me that my boat (at nearly 30 feet) only weighs about a third of that...
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be too worried about seeing daylight: think of that other well known glass product the window. My Hurley 22 is 40 years old and light gets through too but the layup is pretty hefty. Modern boats of a sandwich construction don't let light through because of the foam.

I'm suprised no-one has mentioned multihulls as a liveaboard solution having recieved some excellent hospitality from a liveaboard couple aboard one and seen the level of comfort.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top