Cheap hulls & weather forcasts?

[flotsam jetsam]

We are aiming to buy an ex-charter Bavaria in Lefkas, and I read this on one of the liveaboard blogs we follow:

'Of course all the liveaboards have proper yachts, and of course all are disparaging about the 'yupes' (Ubiquitous White Plastic Bathtubs), shorthand for any of the mass produced Bavarias and their ilk which by common consent clog up the anchorages in the charter season. These are all airily pooh-poohed as ‘marina boats’, but when one considers that even Mediterranean liveaboards only spend five months of the year at sea a ‘marina boat’ is basically what we all have anyway. One would not want to be in a yupe in a Golfe de Lyon mistral but the weather forecasting is so good now that if one just wants to skirt around the edges of the Med there’s a good chance you’ll never have to see that cheap hull flex or those cheap fittings shake themselves off. One would still have the ‘which Bavaria is mine?’ problem rowing back of an evening – in fact in Corfu marina I saw a spaniel running up and down the pontoon trying to work out which yupe it called home.'

Any comments about cheap hulls flexing? Any comments about weather forecasts meaning it don't matter?

FJ

 

[Ludd]

We are aiming to buy an ex-charter Bavaria in Lefkas, and I read this on one of the liveaboard blogs we follow:

'Of course all the liveaboards have proper yachts, and of course all are disparaging about the 'yupes' (Ubiquitous White Plastic Bathtubs), shorthand for any of the mass produced Bavarias and their ilk which by common consent clog up the anchorages in the charter season. These are all airily pooh-poohed as ‘marina boats’, but when one considers that even Mediterranean liveaboards only spend five months of the year at sea a ‘marina boat’ is basically what we all have anyway. One would not want to be in a yupe in a Golfe de Lyon mistral but the weather forecasting is so good now that if one just wants to skirt around the edges of the Med there’s a good chance you’ll never have to see that cheap hull flex or those cheap fittings shake themselves off. One would still have the ‘which Bavaria is mine?’ problem rowing back of an evening – in fact in Corfu marina I saw a spaniel running up and down the pontoon trying to work out which yupe it called home.'

Any comments about cheap hulls flexing? Any comments about weather forecasts meaning it don't matter?

FJ

Took a 40ft bene Kinsale-A Coruna last year .Moderate winds,moderate seas.Slammed like a door. hatches and ports leaked due to flexing(I assume,unless they leak anyway).
12HRS after arrival,doors and drawers were usable(not jamming) again.

To be fair ,boat WAS all of 8 years old!

 

[vyv_cox]

We are aiming to buy an ex-charter Bavaria in Lefkas, and I read this on one of the liveaboard blogs we follow:

'Of course all the liveaboards have proper yachts, and of course all are disparaging about the 'yupes' (Ubiquitous White Plastic Bathtubs), shorthand for any of the mass produced Bavarias and their ilk which by common consent clog up the anchorages in the charter season. These are all airily pooh-poohed as ‘marina boats’, but when one considers that even Mediterranean liveaboards only spend five months of the year at sea a ‘marina boat’ is basically what we all have anyway. One would not want to be in a yupe in a Golfe de Lyon mistral but the weather forecasting is so good now that if one just wants to skirt around the edges of the Med there’s a good chance you’ll never have to see that cheap hull flex or those cheap fittings shake themselves off. One would still have the ‘which Bavaria is mine?’ problem rowing back of an evening – in fact in Corfu marina I saw a spaniel running up and down the pontoon trying to work out which yupe it called home.'

Any comments about cheap hulls flexing? Any comments about weather forecasts meaning it don't matter?

FJ

Charter boats get more use and abuse in a season than many liveaboard boats get in their lives. What boats are typically used by charter companies? Beneteaus, Bavarias, Jeanneaus, etc.

I have been aboard several ex-charter boats sold off to liveaboards. Without exception they have been in fine condition, sometimes a little aged but completely free of structural problems.

I know several liveaboards who have bought Greek ex-charter boats, which possibly have an even worse reputation than the BavBenJen variety. Those I have seen have been perfectly OK.

You will find there is a great deal of snobbery amongst the liveaboard community, particularly where mass-produced boats are concerned. My advice is to look at some well-used boats of the type you are considering and judge for yourself.

 

[xtiffer]

Many years ago I used to work for a Greek charter company in Rhodes
which had a fleet of Beneteaus and they were superbly maintained.
They had to be or the business would not run.
They were built for it and survived pretty darn well.
Mind you the new ones do look awfully thin.
Cheers,
Chris

 

[1bobt]

I do not think you will have any problems with a Bavaria ,I am envious of the space they have .If you have a few more euro to spend have a look at some Jeanneau and Beneteaus. Lot of good ex charter boats about

Best of luck in finding one

Cheers bobt

 

[Tranona]

Bought my Bavaria new in 2001 specifically as a charter boat. Heavily used for 7 seasons. Totally reliable, does not "flex" or exhibit any of those characteristics of "poor build quality" that non-owners love to tell you about. Those who were in the Ionian middle October will know worst storms for X years. Not as single leak from anywhere.

Have been tempted to buy a "proper boat" a couple of times, but anything in the same price/size range is not worth buying and even doubling the budget does not get you significant advantages. Perhaps that is why I always run Ford cars as well!

Most charter boats are actually (like mine) privately owned. Arguably these are better than company owned boats, but as already noted good charter companies keep all boats up to scratch. If you buy a typical 6 year old boat, expect to get sails less than 2 years old, a good tender, all the electrics and water systems working and a good record of engine servicing. Uphosltery in the saloon gets a bit of a hammering, so be prepared to replace that. Canvas work such as spray hood and bimini should still be serviceable. make sure the full inventory is still there - most charter companies have a standard inventory - go through it in detail.

Last, but not least, you will have to pay VAT if buying direct from a charter company based on the sale price. The boat will need de-registering - make sure this is included in the price as it is expensive. You should get a Bill of Sale which you have to get witnessed by the Port Police, a statement of deregistration from the registrar who also endorses the BOS and your VAT receipt. You can then register on the SSR, but if you are raising finance you might have to register Part 1 which can cost up to £1000 because you need an approved surveyor in Greece to do the measurement.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.

BTW Welcome to the forum

 

[jonic]

Flotsam

I am a liveaboard and a broker so let me give you my opinion, but understand it is just my opinion.

I own and liveaboard a Moody 38 but have owned Beneteau, Legend and Westerly. I sell "proper" boats and also Bavaria, Jeanneau, Dufour, and Beneteau etc.

The mass produced charter boats are built to a price, to make the business viable, and with as many berths as possible to maximise bums on bunks, again to make the business viable.

They are not as solidly built as what some would refer to as proper boats. This does not make them bad.

They use different build techniques and generally the bulkheads are less structural and act more as dividers. (Some you can even remove to increase cabin space.) This can make the hulls more prone to flexing, but it does not mean the hull is going to fail. The plus side is more space below and of course a lesser price.

The interiors of mass produced boats are like modern day mass produced furniture, it is not the same as the beautiful dovetail jointed furniture your grandparents would pass down the generations. "Proper" boats do have this (expensive) craftsman produced solid furniture and not only can it last longer but it often improves with age.

A more solidly built hull and interior will help keep the hull shape and keep the water flowing over the hull in a more efficient manner. A heavier build to the interior will generally also result in a heavier boat that gives a more sea kindly motion.
Again it does not mean the flatpack style interior is bad, it's just different and it does make the boat hugely cheaper.

The lighter modern production boat can be great fun downwind and is often faster with a very responsive light helm.

Its all about compromise.

Generally, you get what you pay for. The further up the quality chain you go, the "better" the boat-relatively speaking.

But some of the hysteria you hear surrounding mass produced boats is really not justified and they are perfectly adequate for the use they get. Often with more room, bigger cockpits and good performance.

For long term sailing, especially if caught in bad weather I prefer more displacement and a heavier build, but it's just my preference and ultimately it should be a compromise based on what you prefer.

 

[Swagman]

The best argument for a lower cost boat is to sail one into Venuatu whilst the chaps are still sitting at home saving their pennies andd diiscussingg what I now read are to be called 'proper' boats.

If you've not worked it out yet, there can be a lot of opinions about the model, style, size, weight and origins of a yacht. The reality is your assumption is right, with currentt weather forecasting a charter Bavaria will do you fine. Good luck with the boat and enjoy the fun you'll have.

JOH

 

[gavin_lacey]

1. Having lived aboard a bavaria for 5 years we have very rarely come accross the attitudes you quote.
2. A bavaria would not be my first choice of boat if I wanted to circumnavigate, they are designed for Mediteranean and offshore sailing which they do admirably. They perform well in light winds but need more active helming in heavy stuff. Most Med liveaboards rarely sail in bad weather because we do not have time pressures and forecasts for 3 days are pretty good.
3. They dont leak unlike the teak decked 'proper boats' once they are out of the first flush of youth.
4. You can get a bavaria or other production boat in good condition at a price that makes living the dream possible. If you spent the same money on a 'proper boat' you would be buying a maintenance nightmare. eg replace teak £27K, engine 7K, rig and sails 10k.

 

[BobnLesley]

Another vote with the majority

I wouldn't contemplate crossing an ocean in a Bavaria, but they're lovely boats to party on and when I see one reversing its way around a marina and into a berth, I'm so envious I could spit!

If you're planning to sail in the relatively sheltered waters, with save harbours/anchorages and reliable weather forecasts to hand, that the eastern Med offers, then you'll have no more problems than anyone else. My only proviso, would be give some thought to the anchor that she's carrying; we reckon that the BenJenBavs have a substantially higher incidence of dragging their hooks, than what one might describe as the heavier-built/traditional yachts that've come down from Northern Europe and in many instances, that's not just due to poor anchoring technique, but that (presumably as part of the build-cost reduction process) they've been equiped with under-sized anchors; we're 27'/3 tonnes and have often seen 40+ foot Bavs and the like with a smaller main anchor than ours!

 

[Tranona]

I wouldn't contemplate crossing an ocean in a Bavaria, QUOTE]

Clearly quite a lot of people don't have this kind of hang up!

In this years ARC Transatlantic there are 13 Bavaria, 22 Beneteau, 16 Jeanneau plus a smattering of Dufour, Hanse and Elan!

Maybe they know something that you don't.........

 

[BobnLesley]

Personal preferences

"Maybe they know something that you don't........."

Very possibly, in fact more than likely, Tranoma; I'm daily amazed to discover that the amount I don't know seems to increase rather than dwindle.

I hadn't intended, nor indeed think that I have; stated that one couldn't sail Bavs or any other yacht across Oceans, only that my own choice, would be not too. You refer to the ARC's Entry List, but perhaps a more testing crossing of the Atlantic is via the Mini Transat Race and despite knowing that the vast majority reach the other shore, having had the opportunity to view a couple of Mini-transat yachts, my personal preference would be not to sail one anywhere livelier/more exposed than Rutland Water, or perhaps Windermere if it was a really nice day.

We know several people who think that we're mad to undertake the offshore passages we've made in our Vega, but we've confidence in her so that's all that matters. The same must, apply to those ARC yachts; provided that their Skippers and Crews are confident to ship aboard them, then I've no intention or desire to tell them that they shouldn't.

 

[Tranona]

We know several people who think that we're mad to undertake the offshore passages we've made in our Vega, but we've confidence in her so that's all that matters. The same must, apply to those ARC yachts; provided that their Skippers and Crews are confident to ship aboard them, then I've no intention or desire to tell them that they shouldn't.

Think that is the whole point. People tend to use whatever boats they think are suitable for the job in hand. I remember when Angus Primrose crossed the Atlantic in his Moody he designed - shock horror it was fin and skeg, flat bottom, high topsides - when everybody knew that ocean crossing boats had to be deep long keeled, heavy displacement etc.

The other half of the OPs title "weather forecasts" is also telling. Time was when once you were out of sight of land you were on your own and had to take whatever was dished out. That is not now the case and boats have evolved to reflect the changing environment.

Would be boring if we all had the same boats!

 

[Swagman]

Think that is the whole point. People tend to use whatever boats they think are suitable for the job in hand. I remember when Angus Primrose crossed the Atlantic in his Moody he designed - shock horror it was fin and skeg, flat bottom, high topsides - when everybody knew that ocean crossing boats had to be deep long keeled, heavy displacement etc.

The other half of the OPs title "weather forecasts" is also telling. Time was when once you were out of sight of land you were on your own and had to take whatever was dished out. That is not now the case and boats have evolved to reflect the changing environment.

Would be boring if we all had the same boats!

Indeed it would.

But it always irritates me to hear the old fashioned concepts of only what suited the Hiscocks and the Pardies being rehashed today, decades too late and so far out of date it is hadly relevant. I know we all enjoy taking part in a 'conservative' sport but I often dispair we are stuck to only respecting concepts that are 30 years behind........

Methinks when it comes to any conventional circumnavigation you'll experience a longer time sailing in light airs than anyone would spend in heavy weather.

Methinks most of us when 'cruising' or even when playing at 'livaboards' spend more time parked up than one does spend sailing the seas.

So the open and airy layout in a modern lighter weight design is IMHO overall a benefit and not a disadvantage.

I too like to look at heavier displacement craft - ideally looking at them to admire the shape, the varnish, the decks, the polish. But live or sail long term on one is not for me - even if I could (which I cannot) afford one.

So agree 100%. Vive la difference. And buy what you need - for the reasons you apply - and definately not for someone elses.

JOHN

 

[KellysEye]

>Time was when once you were out of sight of land you were on your own and had to take whatever was dished out. That is not now the case and boats have evolved to reflect the changing environment.

Well, yes you can now get weather forecasts when ocean sailing. However, unless you have a Volvo 60/70, you can't outrun a storm. Thus you still are on your own and have no option but to take what comes along. Boats certainly have evolved because of a new market - weekend caravans, not because of offshore weather forecasts.

Bottom line is while ocean sailing you will at some point(s) get heavy weather which is why a number of us prefer sea-kindly 'proper' boats.

I think one of the isues (I've mentioned this before) is that people are misled. The category system was hijacked by the French mass production builders to ensure all their boats and equivalent boats got an ocean category rating.

 

[Tranona]

>


I think one of the isues (I've mentioned this before) is that people are misled. The category system was hijacked by the French mass production builders to ensure all their boats and equivalent boats got an ocean category rating.

Whilst I agree with you about the possibility of having to cope with bad weather, I do disagree with you about categorisation. Are you saying that over 60 of the entrants in the ARC who are sailing Bav/Ben/Jen etc have been misled? Give them some credit for being intelligent people who are quite capable of making their own decisions about what boat they buy. Disparaging remarks about "weekend caravans" do not help. Most, probably all, of these boats will successfully cross the Atlantic. Hardly weekend caravans!

Many of these skippers will have owned "proper" boats in the past - because that was on offer, but now make a different decision.

Designs evolve for all sorts of reasons. One of the benefits of today's mass production boats is that it has brought the prospect of owning a substantial boat within the reach of far more people who undertake voyages that were the prerserve of a select few 40 or 50 years ago.

 

[KellysEye]

>Are you saying that over 60 of the entrants in the ARC who are sailing Bav/Ben/Jen etc have been misled?

If they've made the decision to buy their boats at least partly on categorisation then yes they have been misled. If they haven't, they haven't.

We once met a couple in Greece who had day sailed (with two overnights) from the UK.
The boat was fully equiped for camping at night. They were sailing a Wayfarer. If you can do in that you can do it in just about any boat given the right weather, it's just how much comfort you want.

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti AWB's, or indeed any type of boat, but I wouldn't take an AWB ocean sailing. Others do and that's fine.

 

[Robin]

For years and years I said I would never buy a French boat because they weren't a patch on a good old British one. I was also prejudiced against a Westerly too since I had friends who would only ever buy Westerly and rammed them down my throat continually.

Then I saw the light and opened my mind and my eyes!

My next boat was a Westerly 33 Ketch. We had 14 years of delightful cruising in an excellent boat. But I would never buy a French boat, too flimsy blah blah blah..

Then I saw and bought my lovely Jeanneau Sun Legende 41. Oh what a dream to sail, can even sail in light winds, fast and very capable in all weathers and very civilised living. Took a 6th place in the AZAB 2 handed, done another 15,000mls in the 8 years of our ownership. What a boat! I just wish I'd seen that bit of light a bit earlier and had the pleasure for longer.

I would be happy to take the Westerly 33 off round the world and even happier to take the Sun Legende 41. Come to think of it I would have felt safe enough in the Elizabethan 30 I had before either of these as well! Three totally different boats.

Seems to me that some folk feel a constant need to justify their own choices, why, was it such a bad choice they made? In fact all boats are compromises and no two people will have the same priorities.

 

[1bobt]

If Bavarias are sooooo bad why are there so many of them . The ones from the nineties have not fallen apart and all the owners ,of the latest, seem very happy with them .Are people with older english boats really jealous?

cheers bobt

 

[jonic]

In fact all boats are compromises and no two people will have the same priorities.

Exactly.

The problem comes when you get the two extremes in either camp.

On the one side you have the Bavaria owner (I'm not singling out Bavarias just for ease of use) who claims that his boat is as good as say a Najad and "proper boats" are just overpriced.

And the "proper boat" owner who claims all Bavarias etc will have their keels fall off as soon as they leave the Marina.

Neither is correct.


A modern production boat fills it's targeted market slot perfectly and most people realise that a trans-Atlantic trade wind crossing in good weather will be no problem. In the right conditions it can be a very easy passage.

Going around the horn or facing sustained tough conditions however would be a different matter.