cheap diesel engine

[daveyjones]

I'd appreciate informed opinion or better, personal experience, on the best way to get hold of a diesel engine without having to remortgage the house! Would a marinised car or truck engine be a good idea, and if so what is a good make to do this on ( I suppose reliability comes first, then availability of spares world-wide)? Could I buy an engine from, say, a new crash-damaged insurance write-off, and convert it to yacht use?
The engine is for a 40 ft Colin Archer, heavy displacement and beamy. I'm pretty ignorant about inboard engines, so what would be a good power rating for a boat this size? If marinising is best, where can I buy the parts? Would I do better to buy an old engine from a yacht and rebuild it?

 

[mainmarine]

There was an article in one of the mags about someone who bought a wrecked small diesel van and marinised the engine, I will see if I can find the article

 

[bdsweeting]

Yes, an engine from an insurance write-off could be good. I would think that you need to be looking at a large van, Transit?, engine.

Have a look at www.lancingmarine.com for some ideas on the type of engine you need.

 

[Bejasus]

for this kind of application, you would want some thing with a long stroke and relatively slow revving, around 2500rpm - 3000rpm max. A small truck engine would be ideal.

 

[Superflid]

I'm (eventually!) using a Land Rover 2.25 diesel in mine. Around 50bhp, cheap and spares are everywhere. Solid, heavy and slow-running old lump.

 

[Bejasus]

Ideal really. Anything like that with between 50-100hp. Commonly used are Ford Lehman's 80-120bhp, or even Perkins 4108.

 

[Shantyman]

Good Morning Daveyjones.

Your profile is remarkably scanty but I assume from your posting that you don't have any in-depth experience of diesel engines.

I will add a few cautionary words from my own experience, to the previous postings. I am at present looking for an engine for my Tjalk and have looked at quite a few engines in recent months.

There is nothing wrong in principle with your idea. Provided the engine you convert is in good condition and of a suitable type and horsepower.

In the cas of some engines I have looked at, the vendor has made equivocal claims about the condition and examination has proved the engine to be s**t.

In some cases the engine has been pressure washed and re-sprayed so as to look nice. (The Dutch call this "English reconditioning"

In some cases I have been offered a "12 months guarantee" (verbal of course).

The point is that you need to be absolutely sure of the condition before you instal it in the boat because any "Guarantee" on a used engine will be unlikely to cover the cost of any removal and refitting that may be neccessary.

Cylinder head jobs are usually not too much of a problem but anything wrong with the crankshaft / pistons / liners / oil pump etc will almost always involve removal from the boat or a lot of difficult manoeuvring.
If you have to pay for this, any initial savings can pretty soon be lost and you still have a "second hand engine".

How to avoid this:
Buy from someone you know and trust.
Ask for written statement of condition or engine hours or mileage etc.
Take salesmen's verbal statements with a pinch of salt.
Get an engineer to examine and test it. i.e. Internal examination with an endoscope, compression test etc, running it up for a decent period of time, temperatures, smoke and so on. Get a written report if possible. It's better to "waste" a few quid on a "fail" report than buy a load of trouble.

Another way is to buy a very cheap unit and recondition it yourself.
That way you know exactly what you have got.

Dont be tempted to buy one that is too big or too small just because the price seems good.

The "Boatdiesel.com" website is good for calculations of H.P required, shaft size, prop calcs etc. but always get these calcs verified by the prop manufacturer if you buy a new prop. Otherwise if the prop is wrong he can blame it on your data!

My own pet hate is Injectors under the rocker box (Fuel leaks can dilute the Lub. oil)
(Gardner fans assure me that this doesn't happen with Gardners!)

At the moment I am thinking of going down the Buy cheap / Rebuild option, but you never know what may turn up to-morrow.

Regards,

Shantyman.

 

[oldharry]

Firstly you need to be very carfeul indeed about selecting a suitable engine. A worn diesel can still start and run off load quite happily without revealing its problems. The head can be removed and dealt with fairly easily, but if there are problems in the block- pistons, crank, bearing, seals etc, then this involves an engine out job and is not cheap!

A low mileage insurance write off is usually the best source of road engines.

Next you have to consider the cost of marinising. Many modern engines will not accept seawater cooling (dissimilar metals, and soft alloys do not cope with corrosive hot seawater and will dissolve like butter!). You will need a heat exchanger, water cooled manifold (often combined), a seawater pump, possibly modification parts for the cooling system, a gearbox adapter plate and a gearbox, and usually different engine mounts, as most modern vehicles have transverse mounted engines whose mounts are in the wrong place for a boat.

Take a look at www.lancingmarine.com to get an idea of what you need and the cost - and indeed availability, as by no means all road engines can be coverted for marine use.

Your best bet is to buy an old diesel that you know can be marinised without breaking the bank, and have it reconditioned. More expensive in thre short term, but at least you know you have a basically good engine before you put it in!

 

[kds]

If you really are ignorant about inboard engines - don't take the risk - go and buy a BETA who do the marinising of proven, new diesel engines to professional standards - and back them up.
Ken

 

[Guest]

4107 ...

My 4-99 gave up after water got into it ..... locked solid. So I looked around for cheap replacement ....and I was passed a guys name / number .... pm me and I'll pass it on .... I will not post it on forum - as I do not want to inundate the guy with calls !!! He supplies Perkins engines ex end of line stock ... some new in box's.

Anyway ....... I couldn't get hold of him and was in a rush ... so looked around breakers yards, junk heaps etc. etc. Then one day mentioned to marina boss ... he opens a shed door and says what about that .... 4107 second hand, taken out of 35ft'r and runs ok .... bit smokey but still a runner. Owner invested in a new Beta and left this here ....

200 notes changed hands after it was bench run, yes it is a bit smokey - but a lot less than the one it replaces and general consensus of the engineer who checked it over for me ... probably gummed up with standing and lack of use ...

Believe me - the engine starts runs and plods along very nicely thank-you..... 40HP or more as we are not quite sure of the actual set-up on this one ... Perkins had different HP's on each model depending on use and installation.

So OK - I'm probably lucky - but I know that many people change engines and the old ones are still good for a few years ... you can pick them up pretty cheap - I would try and find one very close to home - in own marina / yard if possible - then you have the seller close at hand if it goes belly-up .....

The suggestion of rebuild of old is a valid one with prices of engines as they are ...

Oh and yes the engine is getting better as I use it ... the smoke is only half what it used to be and hopefully after the trip from UK to Baltic - should be clean as a whistle. (Smoke was only on start up anyway ......)
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[dickh]

Re: 4107 ...

Everything that has been said is valid, but if you go down the 'marinise a vehicle engine' road, check carefully that aal the bits are available for marinisation. Lancing Marine is the best bet for this info. Make sure it is a 'simple' engine which can be repaired anywhere - don't touch any of the modern high speed car engines - they have 'engine management modules' which you won't be able to repair. Good luck anyway

 

[boatmike]

While it sounds patronising I would agree that ifyou don't know much about diesel engines there are too many pitfalls. Contrary to belief the parts to marinise a land diesel properly are not cheap either. A job for the experienced I believe...

 

[Bejasus]

actually, the marinisation is not that difficult to carry out. The XLD 1.8 I have just done, looked every bit as good as Lancing's one at the boat show. You are right in that the parts are not cheap, but not difficult to fit if one is a little competent with hand tools.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Somebody wrote a book on this. I have a copy, will check and post again when found.
Very commonsensical and down to earth.

 

[daveyjones]

Thank you all for taking the time to advise - I'll look into everything you recommend. If anyone knows any good books on marinising auto engines please let me know. On searching the internet for second-hand boats, I see that quite a few around the world are fitted with Renault engines. Any comments? I assume that these are auto engines. I would like to fit an engine for which parts are available world-wide, and down in Ramsgate there is a sales yard full of brand new Renaults, Mercedes, BMW's etc, with the back end smashed in but the engines pristine. I feel I'd rather go for that than an old marine diesel of dubious history. I have a fair bit of experience with engines generally, so I'm not frightened of the work, but I'm concerned about costs and obtaining the right information. I've looked at the Lancing website and I'm sure it could be done cheaper - like I said I don't want to mortgage my house!

 

[boatmike]

With respect, I have had to sort out many cock ups caused by "amateur" marinisations. You are correct that it is not difficult if you know what you are doing, and I would not wish to deter a dedicated amateur. The opportunity is there however for a lot of money to be spent on an engine of dubious condition marinising it only to find the engine is then in need of a complete overhaul...

 

[boatmike]

Davey,
If you feel confident to do it the Renault (PGA) is a good engine and if you can pick up a guaranteed good one go for it. Many of the Vetus engines are indeed Renaults. Now that you have said you have a fair amount of experience with engines generally I would be more inclined to encourage you but cost it out fully first. Dont forget that in addition to the cooling system, gearbox, etc that are obvious costs you will need an electrical panel and wiring, cables, engine mounts, and quite a lot of other bits that come in the price when you buy a new marine diesel. In addition to Lancing you will find ASAP supplies good for the bits you need and very helpful. Good luck!

 

[daveyjones]

what about marinising a good engine, like the almost-new ones I mentioned from a crash-damaged cars?

 

[mainmarine]

PBO No 416 has an article about using reclaimed van engine

 

[TrueBlue]

Nobody has pointed out that automotive engines develop their power over a much wider rev: range than industrial units, and do not perform well at low power outputs; tending to glaze their bores, and create sludge if they are not regularly worked hard.

Industrial / marine units on the other hand have a narrower power band and are designed for indifferent maintenance and prolonged idling.

In my youf I hired many narrowboats and found that the vehicle powered boats - Ford XLD, BMC, etc all smoked like blazes and had poor torque, and were noisy. Those based on Kubota units didn't.

I suggest that you examine a base Kubota unit and cost the marinization of that.