Charts selection: Overkill or "On a Wing and a Prayer"

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Plomong

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Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

I've recently been trying to figure out which charts to take on a cruise starting from Brest, going up the Irish Sea on the east coast of Ireland, up the west coast of Scotland and over the top through the Pentland Firth, then back down through the Caledonian Canal and the Irish Sea.

The three sets I've come up with are basically:

Strategy 1 : Use mainly Admiralty Small Craft Editions, scale around 1:75,000 with a few smaller scale charts for specific difficult stretches or harbour approaches (Milford Haven, Sound of Luing, Entrance to Loch Inver, etc).
This comes to 50+ charts, about 30 of which are Small Craft Editions, the remainder being Standard Navigation Charts.

Strategy 2 : Use mostly Leisure Portfolios, fleshed out with Small Craft Editions and Standard Navigation Charts, as above, where necessary.
This comes to 7 portfolios and 30 supplementary charts, mostly in northern Scotland.

Strategy 3 : Use Imray or Admiralty large-scale charts (1:150,000 or more) with a small number of small-scale Admiralty charts for difficult stretches or harbour entrances, as in Strategy 1, but fewer in number.
This comes to 11 Imray C-Series charts and less than 10 Admiralty Standard Navigation Charts.

All three options would be used in conjunction with Reeds Almanac and the relevant pilots (probably the Imray ones: the 4 Scottish ones + Irish Sea).

I don't know how to insert a link to a pdf document into this post, and copying from Word just produces a mess, so I cannot insert the three lists here. However, the numbers quoted can be seen as implying a significant outlay for charts that will be used on just one voyage, and never again.

So, my questions for the forum are:

A) Are Strategies 1 and 2 "Overkill" or would you consider them just prudent?

B) Would you consider Strategy 3 to be "navigating on a wing and a prayer"?

C) Would the use of cancelled or out of date secondhand charts in Strategies 1 and 2 be prudent? It would certainly be more economic.

I would be very interested in hearing forumites views on this matter, especially those of members who have been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

Did you find your approach adequate?
In all respects?
If not, what would you do differently (with respect to charts and pilots) if starting out today?

If any of you would like to review the three lists of charts, I can send them by email, if you would post me your email account by PM.

Thanking you all for your help,

Plomong
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

I sailed from Glasson Dock to Malta with Imray Charts, Pilot Books, and a Lowrance Chartplotter with Nauticpath cartridges.

The paper charts would be adequate, if not ideal, if the plotter failed.

Admittedly, I also had C-Map charts on the laptop, but this was a "nice to have" boys toy, rather than a necessity.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

I'd do as RichardM44.
I have the top of the range Lowrance h/h plotter with Nautic Path chart that was a bundled deal.

Last year I arrived in a Dutch Marina and mentioned I wanted Waddenzee charts. A skipper sold me his 2008 charts for half price.

At the end of your trip I imagine your up to date charts could be sold via this forum?
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

Cardiff to Edinburgh, over two seasons, via Orkney with possible diversions into the Clyde, to the Western Isles or to Shetland

I was not planning to hang around in the Bristol Channel so I had Imrays plus a BA South West Wales Leisure FolioSC5620 for going round the bottom corner of Wales plus a visit to Milford H.

Similarly I planned a quick passage up the Irish Sea so Imrays until I reached the Clyde then BA Leisure Folio 5610(The Firth of Clyde) then the BA Leisre folio for the West coast up to Ardnamurchan.

From Ardnamurchan to Edinburgh I had all the full sized charts which I acquired on eBay. From Stornaway to the Forth including Orkney and Shetland I got in one lot, the others I picked up singly.

I would have been quite happy with Imrays down the North Sea.

I'm quite happy to use non corrected secondhand charts up to about ten years old: as they say rocks don't move much.

I depend for the detailed stuff on the pilot books, the almanac and my chartplotter.(Cheap and cheerful Lowrance with largely satisfactory Nauticpath charts, although Nauticpath leaves out part of the West Coast)

I like to plan where I'm going on the chart, see where I am on the chart: I've always had paper charts around and would feel a bit lost without them.

Sounds like a great cruise you have planned, how long are you taking over it?
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

I would suggest you get some second-hand charts from here -
http://www.marinechartservices.co.uk/

Personally, I use a mixture of Imray C series charts for passage planning/passage making, and BA for more detail of the bits I want to explore.

These sailing directions are good -
http://www.clyde.org/www2/dir_home.shtml

I'm sure you could sell them again after your cruise to defray expenses.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

When cruising the French and Spanish coasts I found that medium scale charts worked well when accompanied by up to date pilot books to cover harbours and their entrances.. Plus an up to date lights list. In fact that would be my preferred strategy with the exception of the canal were I to contemplate the trip you are doing .

The only would-be-ok-in-court-after-an-accident approach would be a full set of Admiralty charts all up to date. Plus the pilot and lights list. Anything else does take on extra risk.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

A situation we all face, and doubtless produces as many variations.

My approach is firstly to recognise that Admiralty (that I used exclusively years ago when I started) is basically a shipping agency that has belatedly chucked a few expensive and poorly coordinated charts to the leisure market. Some of their offerings with large unprinted areas are a provocation!

I have gone to Imray which has chartlets of ports and headlands and is much better value for the leisure industry.

Politage charts can indeed be a little dated without unacceptable risk - get them from the chart handlers. But don't overdo this - written off charts should not be carried.

Imray small scale sets are very good and can be updated easily off the web. So some savings can be made here too.

It's not strictly necessary to have brand spanking charts for every mile of a trip, assuming an upto date almanac (I use the Reeds loose leaf - best value and easy to use)

Hope that helps.

PWG
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

For long open stretches why many charts ? Large area chart is good enough.
If you have a plotter that will look after many aspects of emergency duck into harbour as well as plotting progress.

A few charts covering harbours / areas expected to stop at.

The overall number can be quite small if looked at carefully.

Cancelled charts ? Personally I have no problem with them, backed up with good pilot book or harbour guide - you can be covered. Let's be honest once you close the coast and start into a harbour - who follows chart and who follows buoyage / marks seen by mk1 eyeball ? I know what I do ... chart brings me to entrance ... then it's follow the buoys / marks in ...

To give an idea of 'economic' chart cruising :

July - August this year ... I will cruise from Ventspils, Latvia up to Kurressaare, Saaremaa, then Virtsu, Estonia ... across to Lehtma, Hiumaa .... then across baltic to Hanko, Finland. Next is a trek through rock strewn Alands Isles to Eckero before then dropping SW into Stockholm Archipelago. Cruise on down to Sandhamn to exit for long leg to Gotland and then home to Ventspils.

2009SBCbaltic-1.gif


What will be chart inventory ?

Lowrance plotter with nauticpath card as main plotting medium.
Large area Adm chart (cancelled) for overall appraisal
2 x Adm charts (cancelled) for Sweden - Gotland - Latvia coverage
Finnish chart packs of ring bound charts for Alands Isles passage (1997 versions acquired second-hand)
Swedish chart packs similar to Finnish for Archipelago (2000 - 2001 versions of ebay).

Details from English edition of Swedish Archipelago Guide to harbours (Arholma to Landsort harbours guide incl . Gotland) This is new.

Details from Cruising Assoc. Baltic Habours guide. This is new.

Overall the total inventory is probably less than half that most boats carry. I can add to it by virtue that I work when I travel ! Meaning I have my notebook Computer with me and that has full chart plotting coverage if necessary.

I have to be careful about amount I carry - as my boat is only 25ft and full paper coverage as some would advise would be difficult.


Hope my 'budget' approach helps !! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

I sailed around Ireland last Summer and faced similar decisions. I used a Navman colour plotter and c-map NT+ charts which I picked up used on e-bay for primary navigation. I then bough the Imray set for most of Ireland, which charts are useful for passage planning and have reasonably detailed harbour chartlets. The main issue was what to do about the West of Ireland. No leisure portfolio available, and a difficult coast in weather. I felt more comfortable with Admiralty Charts covering the Connemara, Mayo and Donegal coasts, leaving out some areas I did not intend to visit.(Galway Bay, Donegal Bay) I was happy enough to buy used or in some cases cancelled charts as most of the surveying was carried out many years ago. In practice I mostly used Imray to passage plan, plot waypoints and to log progress, and the plotter for detailed navigation, but would still take paper charts for security. I rounded the north east corner without paper coverage and felt uncomfortable until back in coverage, nothwithstanding the plotter. So on balance I would go for a combination of chartplotter covereage, and option 3, plus pilot books. I am certainly not ready to go paperless!

Enjoy
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

I'd say vary your strategy according to the difficulty of various parts of the route and the likely ports of refuge.

For example, I would want a very detailed Admiralty chart of the Scillies as it is strategically positioned on your route, but would be happy with a pretty basic chart for getting into Falmouth if necessary (i.e the sort of chartlets you get on Imray charts).

Further north places like Milford Haven, Waterford/Dunmore East, Arklow, Dun Laoghaire, Holyhead etc are all relatively easy to get into. Kilmore Quay would require a bit more detail. (OK Arklow's not always easy but doesn't need that detailed a chart, just avoid the wrong weather)

The source data for the East Coast of Ireland is so old anyway that it's not worth worrying about that much detail. Just enough to show the approximate position of the banks and all the bouyage.

In between these you should be able to use pretty large scale charts covering a large area.

And so on...I hope you get the idea of what I mean.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

The leisure folios are much better value than the equivalent large-scale standard charts, but assuming your chart table is large enough to accommodate it, the standard chart is easier to use for passage making. For example, the route South from Bangor, Northern Ireland, via Donaghadee Sound is covered very nicely by 1753. As far as I can tell, there is no more information on the two chartlets in SC5612 that cover the same area, but it is irritating to have to switch charts just as you are embarking on the tricky bit of the passage (OK, then, it's a piece of cake, but only in good visibility.)

The West Coast of Scotland folio SC5611 is such good value that it is a no-brainer if you are planning to stop more than once or twice on the passage. I found the need to mark the same waypoint on several chartlets a bit of a chore, though, and I was not a little miffed to find that UKHO bringing out a second edition shortly after I had bought the first. I get the impression that the standard charts have a longer shelf-life if you are happy to update with Notices to Mariners.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

[ QUOTE ]
Strategy 3 : Use Imray or Admiralty large-scale charts (1:150,000 or more) with a small number of small-scale Admiralty charts for difficult stretches or harbour entrances, as in Strategy 1, but fewer in number.

[/ QUOTE ]

I reckon that you can depend on your chart plotter and almanac, but must then have a strategy to cover you if the plotter fails. Pick your harbours of refuge, make sure that you have adequate paper chart coverage of those, and make sure tha you have adequate passage charts on which to record your progress.

On a slightly different subject, are you sure that you haven't mixed up your scales? I've always believed that small-scale charts are charts that show things small, and large-scale charts are charts that show things large. So you would use a small-scale chart as a passage chart, and a large-scale chart as a harbour chart. So 1:1000000 is small-scale, and 1:10000 is large-scale.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

Your interpretation is correct. Large scale charts show small areas of the sea area such as harbours and approaches thereto. Small scale charts show large areas between the ports. Half way between will be the routes. The scale used reflects the hazards in the area.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

[ QUOTE ]
I reckon that you can depend on your chart plotter and almanac, but must then have a strategy to cover you if the plotter fails. Pick your harbours of refuge, make sure that you have adequate paper chart coverage of those, and make sure tha you have adequate passage charts on which to record your progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I applied this rule to Strategy 3 I came out with a mix of Imray and Admiralty charts that approached Strategy 1 in size, and probably cost.


[ QUOTE ]
are you sure that you haven't mixed up your scales?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I was not sure, but now am -- as you point out the adjectives "large" and "small" refer to the size of the details on the chart and not the number in the scale specified!!! Thanks for pointing that out.

Plomong
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

[ QUOTE ]
The paper charts would be adequate, if not ideal, if the plotter failed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Richard, I'm an inveterate chart navigator, using the plotter only as an aid to check my plottings, and as a graphical indicator of progress for Mrs Plomong.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

[ QUOTE ]
At the end of your trip I imagine your up to date charts could be sold via this forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the charts were new and up to date, I would want to sell them on. However, I'd be less likely to do that if the charts were cancelled versions or out of date editions.
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

Thanks for your comments. I think I understand your approach as:

- Use small scale charts for passages that are relatively free of complications, thus keeping down the overall number of charts required.

- Have larger scale charts for the few difficult areas, such as Land's End, The Smalls in SW Wales, the Clyde and up to Ardnamurchan, and the Pentland Firth.

- Have larger scale charts for the more difficult planned and alternative passage ports, using pilot books and an almanac when entering other ports, such as Milford Haven or Bangor, for example, that present few difficulties.

- Have a reasonable coverage of probable anchorages, especially in NW Scotland.

Sounds an interesting mixed strategy that deserves some study. Thanks for the ideas.

Plomong
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

Refueller,

your approach sounds very similar to those described by OcklePoint, "barryk" and JCP, but for a different area. Please see my reply to OcklePoint.

I missed a holiday afloat in Sandhamn some years ago due to work commitments, when my brother was working in that area. SWMBO and younger daughter, however, had a great time in the Archipelago and Stockholm itself. I was there briefly, working, many many many moons ago and have always wanted to go back to see more. Maybe some day I'll find the time !!

Thanks for your comments,

Plomong
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

[ QUOTE ]
I am certainly not ready to go paperless!

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither am I!! And I work in industrial computer applications!!!

[ QUOTE ]
So on balance I would go for a combination of chartplotter covereage, and option 3, plus pilot books.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find Option 3 a bit bare. I feel it needs some more large-scale charts for difficult stretches and port entries, but not too many, mind. I'm thinking of the Sound of Luing, Sound of Mull, etc.

However, I think it is probably a better base than Strategies 1 and 2, which are only affordable if using cancelled or second-hand charts.

Mulling over your reply and those of OcklePoint, Refueler, JCP and others, I'm coming round to a mixed approach, as outlined in my reply to OcklePoint, using also a mixed new / cancelled / second-hand suit of charts.

Thanks for your ideas and comments.

Plomong
 
Re: Charts selection: Overkill or \"On a Wing and a Prayer\"

Following your suggestions, and those of others above, a mixed approach could be:

- Imray C6 and C7 plus SC 1148, SC 777 and SC 1168: Land's End sorted.

- Imray C60: SW Wales sorted.

- Leisure Folio 5621: East coast of Ireland sorted.

- SC 2199, SC 1753, SNC 2198: North Channel sorted.

- Leisure Folios 5610 and 5611: West Scotland up to Ardnamurchan sorted.

- Imray C66, C67, C68 and C23 plus Adm 2541, 2500, 2504, 2503, 2162, 2568, 1462 and 1791: Nort Scotland and Caledonian Canal sorted.

This looks quite an acceptable suite of charts, and quite a bit lower in cost (new or second-hand) than my original all-Admiralty list.

Thanks for your comments and ideas,

Plomong
 
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