Chart plotters V laptops with appropriate software

[graham42]

laptops!
again dell gets an advert.
maxsea is very good with setsail version 10.22
it allows use of all charts plus free S57 charts from noaa.com
my personnel preference is c-map on ec4?!?
its fast and detailed.
covers the world on 3 cds and downloads to 1.5gb
i use a h/held magellen gps and 350watt inverter.
wish list includes;
remote monitor in cockpit
graham
dont leave home without it

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[HaraldS]

Re: Chart plotters V laptops with appropriate soft

I have now been using both an integrated hi-end chart plotter and laptops with MaxSea for four years in various areas and conditions. The net effect being that I have come from favoring dedicated plotters more towards PCs. All seems to have their strengths and weaknesses and I have made several observations that are not immediately obvious at the first glance.

As a dedicated unit we’re using a Simrad CA40 with a second station in the cockpit. That second station is mounted next to the companion way under the dodger. This plotter includes radar and graphical echo sounder. It was updated two years ago to the equivalent of the CA42, which brought support of NT+ charts, WAAS and EGNOS in addition to the differential GPS and some smaller enhancements especially when interlinking radar and chart display.

Some of the best news is that it is well readable from all over the cockpit and from behind the wheel, even in bright sunlight if the unit itself is shaded. It is not the new SunView type which gets brighter with brighter sunlight, but the backlight is orders of magnitude brighter than what we know from laptops.

The second big plus is the robustness of this excellently built hardware, it is really weatherproof.

Finally it is easier to use, especially for new crew than the laptop based stuff. I can usually explain it to a new crewmember in five minutes and they can then play with it without any danger of changing important settings or getting entirely lost. I don’t think all that is true for the even more versatile PC stuff.

The down sides of the plotter as I see them are as follows:

Quite obviously you are tied to just one type of electronic chart, and in a few cases that also ties you to one brand of plotters. While this is not the case with the c-map NT+ cartridges we use and we could use several other makes with these charts, there is still no blending of different types of charts on any of the dedicated plotters available.

With the c-map NT+ cartridge concept you cannot license charts on the fly while under way. On the other hand the cartridge based version you can ‘trade in’ for different areas at a substantial price break, something not available with the CD version.

The biggest down side from my perspective, and one that I only realized after a while, is that these dedicated devices become obsolete fairly quickly and there isn’t much headroom in those boxes to easily adopt a bunch of new features. A modular PC based system you can gradually upgrade and load new software based features yourself where ever you are.

While many of the dedicated devices keep software in re-writable memory like flash ROM, I only know one vendor that allows you to load software upgrades from the internet and update the unit yourself. (That is Garmin). Simrad and Raymarine require the units to be brought to a dealer, which is a hassle, and even harder to do from far away. My Raymarine Autopilot (a hi-end 400G) with quite an early firmware level would probably work much better with an update, but then I don’t want to take it out, send it off and hope that I’ll get it again. So the pain level has to be quite high before I’d go ahead and do that. Same is true for the Simrad plotter, it was updated two years ago to the level of the equivalent next unit, but there are also some bugs in that software which make it drop out once a week. Needs restarting and some fiddling before it’s back on. Not annoying enough to mail it in though.

The obsoleteness you feel in speed and in the fact that you cannot get some of the new technologies integrated. With respect to speed these things have much slower processors than current PC’s, that keeps them cooler without fans and saves power, but they are definitely slower than a PC-based plotter and the software update for NT+ made it even slower building up a chart image. I’m sure the current model (the CA44) copes with that with a faster processor, but then mine is only 4 years old. Replacement costs would be multiples of replacing PC’s.

Technology wise, I think AIS is a good current example. None of the dedicated plotters I have seen to date, and off course not my 4 year old unit support displaying AIS vectors and data. My PC with MaxSea on the other hand does this brilliantly. Judging from my first impressions, I think that in a year or so AIS will catch on big time and will be almost as big a revolution to navigation as was GPS. But any plotter you buy today doesn’t support it, and many of those will probably never do so.

Summing it up, I think dedicated plotters give you a great and reliable solution that is easily introduced to new crew but falls short in the width of options and charts, and they age fast in a time of frequent introduction of new technologies.

The experience using PC’s on board is quite different, and we found other strengths and weaknesses. With respect to chart plotter usage, we use the PCs as backup so far. Usually we have the dedicated plotter working a route and equipped with detailed C-Map NT+ charts, and the PC plotter (mostly MaxSea) complementing with other charts. Raster charts even if not as detailed and up to date in our case, complement the vector stuff quite well with all the land detail that is missing from the vector charts. The prime use of the PCs was however for weather routing (another feature I have not seen on any dedicated plotter), then communications for ssb-email and iridium and now the really convincing AIS. Max Sea certainly supports AIS plotting and shows you all relevant vessels if you wish sorted by CPA.

We can also use the C-Map NT+ cartridges on the PC with MaxSea and the look is exactly the same, just that the picture builds up much faster.

On the down side is the complexity of integrating a feature rich system on PCs. I friend just equipped his boat entirely new, all PC based and the integration, done by one of the leading companies was a drama and still not everything is working properly. But this includes radar, sat compass and autopilot integration, plus waterproof daylight displays, touch screens etc. You really need to know a lot to keep such a system working properly, but when it works it is fantastic.

We with just normal laptops have a bit more simplicity, but off course no way to use it in the cockpit and it is hard to explain all the necessary details to visiting crew.

So we will keep living with this hybrid approach for some more time, but if I would ever re-equip it would also be a modular PC based system, with black boxes for radar and the like, and some good hardware for the cockpit.

I don’t think there is a single best choice and it depends on what your ambitions are and if you enjoy fiddling with complex modular systems.

From a cost perspective, I think PC solutions are cheaper, especially on the long run, as you can upgrade parts of the system when the time comes.




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[MainlySteam]

Re: Chart plotters V laptops with appropriate soft

A very valuable recounting of your experience Harald and your effort doing so is certainly valued by me.

I have, for my own boat, used computers rather than plotters and value the great flexibility in software choice and chart data formats that gives. In my own case that enabled me to use the free SeaClear to get a feel for my needs (it actually served those for quite some time), trial a few commercial applications, and finally settle on one (for now) all on the same hardware platform. I have always used official charts (I am not troubled by the raster format where S-57 charts are not yet available, and it does not have the same disadvantages on a PC screen as it may have on small plotter displays) so there have been no complications in making those trials - no big choice of inflexible chart data format and then a hardware platform to become locked into. However, I accept that plotters serve the purposes of many, and especially so in casual applications.

I often wonder what will happen to the proprietory chart formats such as C-Map, Navionics, etc as the official S-57 vector charts become more available. Will it be the same as with paper charts where the charts from the official hydrographic organisations predominate?

Also, along those lines, whereas official charts are accepted as reliable by authorities for navigation purposes, the others are not (their own producers usually even stating that they are not to be relied on for navigation). Does that mean that as people become more confident with electronic solutions and carry fewer paper charts that official electronic charts will become predominant due to their implied trustworthiness?

Regards

John

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[ChrisE]

Re: Chart plotters V laptops with appropriate soft

I've watched and occassionally contributed to the PC/chartplotter debate with interest and Harald's post is the most comprehensive I've seen so far.

For what it's worth I've used PC/Navmaster/ARCS charts for the past five years and continue to use them as my primary navigational system with plots going onto paper charts on longer voyages as back up, just in case...

We now carry two laptops on longer voyages with identical sets of software. As well as Navmastyer, we've now got programmes for calculating the tides (Totaltide), charts to use (Chartplanner), visual passage planner for long distance routing and PocketStars for celestial navigation (I know - why do need a GPS?). They all sit on the PC and are all used during trips for different aspects of planning and passage making.

Next year, we're upgrading the instrumentation and we're going down the Raymarine HSB2 route to get integrated chartplotter/radar/instrument readouts in the cockpit and the nav station. I might migrate to the Raymarine PC software but it looks fairly simple when compared with the Navmaster. I'm happy with the arrangement to keep the PC as the main system for the reasons that Harald has explained, primarily upgrades, the amount of information on the ARCS charts and the integration of the progammes above.

I've come to the conclusion that neither a PC nor a chartplotter are the perfect solution and that the best thing to do is to play to the strengths of both technologies. For instance, I can foresee that an overlay of radar on a chartplotter in low viz conditions will be very useful and that to have a display in the cockpit for pilotage into an unknown port will be helpful. On the other hand, the laptop comes into its own for me when I'm planning the route which I can do in advance and whilst vector charts are great for zooming in and out (and at a lot less cost than the ARCS equivalent) I feel comforted in knowing that the chart I'm using is the digital equivalent of what the professionals use.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Chart plotters V laptops with appropriate soft

Thanks for the PocketStars lead through your mention of it Chris. Looks interesting and at a very nice price - I now have the Pocket PC and PC versions downloaded to try.

John

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[HaraldS]

Re: Chart plotters V laptops with appropriate soft

Really a good question of where these charts are headed. I have been wondering the same. I had a good chance to compare many different electronic charts, raster and vector by helping many friends getting their equipment to work and I have toyed around with many of them on my PC.
My feeling is that all the survey information that there is on this planet is getting digitized several times with varying quality and completeness and the situation will soon be that everybody has everything with some areas extremely well surveyed and some very poorly with 100 year old data.
From what I can see, C-map leads in completeness and quality when it comes to vectorized data. The CM-93 series has some 17,000 charts in them and they are compatible with the S-57 interchange format. Unfortunately they aim these charts at the professional market and they are quite a bit more expensive than NT+ unless you buy the whole world which is still in the order of €11,000. While these are mainly targeted at the ECDIS level and professional shipping, they do work quite well on MaxSea and I would prefer them over NT+ aside of the price.
As far as I understand it, the NT+ are compiled off the same database, with some less information and NT+ often gets a new marina added in here and there before it shows up in the pro stuff.
With raster no doubt the ARCS stuff is the best overall bet, but way more expensive than any of the vector products and for some areas you get cheaper and better raster charts from other sources. Like for example the Windward Islands you get CYC and IMRAY, both more useful to us yotties than the ARCS.
On the vector side the next biggest folio seems from Transas, and I think that is where Garmin gets their Blue Charts from. I found them equally fine as the C-Map NT+, but world coverage seems not as complete (yet). Unfortunately that is one of the few formats that MaxSea doesn't like so I can't blend any of these in and I really didn't like the Tsunamis software user interface.
Then there is a really cheap product called NaviChart, it is charts and program bundled and you can get a world folio for around €500 or less. On the demo disk you can view the whole world, but navigation is off. I heard they are digitized in Guatemala and sources and quality are a bit dubious. It is amazing what you get for the money, but random quality checks and comparisons on my side sure found a flaw here and there. The only other major electronic charts I have no experience with are the Navionics series, so I can't comment on these.
With respect to what charts I trust I simply go by the rule that the more I have and can compare the better I'm off. If they don't agree there is reason for caution. If they agree, there still is as they mostly come from the same base. But if you think that paper or raster is more reliable, I wouldn't necessarily agree. I noticed that new developments, like breakwaters, new marinas and so on make it faster into the next issue of vector charts than officially corrected paper charts.
I now have all charts that we will need till NZ, but C-Map NT+ only till Panama, and then I plan to trade some cartridges. We now keep paper at the minimum and rather print charts of the area we are getting in as a back-up. That by the way is another plus of the PC solution, you can make very nice charts with MaxSea. We have tried at home and it works fine to formats up to A1. On a big plotter we had some trouble. On the boat we only have an A4 size printer, but if you print out some overviews and some zoomed in approaches you get all you need.
Another thing is datum problems, when we started out with electronic charts we found GPS positions off quite substantially very often, that is gone now at least for European waters. But I made it a habit to check and recalibrate when we get into a new chart. That off course is easiest with chart and radar integration, which right now we only have on the dedicated plotter.
Nice paper complements to electronic charts are the IMRAY charts, which give you an overall plan of the area with a large number of insets for harbors and anchorages. This way you get enough to be safe at a fraction of the price that you spend on a normal folio of the same area.
In the end I think we will find companies that aim at say the leisure market and bundle the best digitized data from many sources into a certain look and feel and provide a good sales and update scheme with it.
Obviously rater will disappear as it is really just an interpretation of in a way digital survey data. It is needed where the original data are lost, but otherwise the basis plus the change history should be all you need.
My biggest problem with the vector charts of today is that they discard most land detail, (or don't buy it in the first place).
Well, we shall see what the future will bring here and I'll probably be wiser too once we are through some of the poorly charted areas of this planet. Europe is really so well covered that they are all OK, except maybe for man made changes, where the update speed hasn't overwhelmed me. I know of many marinas that you don't find in any of the official charts yet, but construction had been going on for some 5 years. Like for example Quinta doLorde on Madeira.


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[ChrisE]

Re: Chart plotters V laptops with appropriate soft

Glad to oblige, I've found it very useful and easy to use.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Chart plotters V laptops with appropriate soft

Have had a look at it and it is a keeper. Will be buying the PC and Pocket PC versions - I see a new version will be out shortly too.

Thanks /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

John

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