Changing racing handicap

[nickfabbri]

We raced in a regatta last weekend and crossed the line 2nd in the first race and first ( by thirty minutes) in the second. We had a handicap provided by Byron, which we have always raced off, and that had been accepted by the race committee.
2 days after the event we received an email saying that our handicap was being changed from 1008 to 950. Just us, and none of the other competitors. This was because although we do not possess or fly a spinnaker, we could do so if we wished and thus our handicap should reflect this.
This means that our 31ft boat sails off 950, while the boat behind us a 38 ft rival sails off 991.
Now obviously I am going to say that this isn't fair. But can the racers amongst you please tell me if i'm wrong. If you need more info please ask.

 

[Lucky Duck]

If you don't have a spinnaker or choose not to use one when racing then most handicap systems from PYH to IRC allow you to have that taken into consideration when calculating the rating. From your posting it sounds like you were a bit too sucessful in your first couple of races and the race committee is trying to even things up a bit!

 

[nickfabbri]

The consensus is that it is bad form to change a handicap after the race has finished and goes against the gentlemans rules.

 

[flaming]

Pretty sure that once the event starts the handicaps are locked unless an error is discovered. Presumably he's claiming that your handicap was an error, perhaps because you hadn't ticked a box to say you weren't going to be flying a kite?
Smacks of bad sportsmanship to me. If you're offended by it your appeal route is to the RYA.

 

[maxi77]

Sounds like you are on a PY based system, so you need to read up on just how it works and how your club should be using the data. You also need to mug up on your clubs handicap rules. You will then hopefully be in a position to argue your case.

 

[William_H]

Handicaps

In our club it is a performance based handicap. (A bit like golf). The handicap is updated by a computer program after the race and for the next race. For a first race (in fact 3 races) you start on scratch ie hardest handicap and then it automatically determines a handicap based on those results.
Certainly a handicap is never changed after the event to affect the results. Errors of system are just worn by the race committee. If however you mislead or cheated in some way and it can be proven then you would be disqualified.
Our handicap system keeps all comers interested however it is a bit gauling to see consistent poor sailing and refusal to use a spin being rewarded by easy handicap and so occasional win.
I just see the handicap system as a joke. Fastest flag is what matters. A hard handicap is another claim to fame especially when sailing one of the smallest boats. So it's only a sport don't get too upset, you know how well you sailed. olewill

 

[nickfabbri]

Thank you all for your responses. I am not going to appeal the result as i do not want to get involved in a dispute "after the fact". I have however offered my services for next year in an attempt to stop this sort of thing happening. This thread, whatever the responses will be used as evidence of the sailing communities consensus on what is the good and right thing to do.
In response to the how we aquired our handicap and whether it was carried out honestly and in the correct manner; within our club and the clubs within the regatta we use the Byron handicap system. It is based entirely on the boat specs. We submitted out handicap 3 years ago when the boat was new and had it returned at 1004. Last week, 3 days after the event we resubmitted and were given a new handicap of 1000 based on us not having a spinnaker. The race committee decided that as we "could" fly a spinnaker, we should be given the handicap of 960.
As previously mentioned, we now sail off 960, while a 38 ft Rival is sailing off 991. Surely this is incorrect?
Again, please shoot me down in flames if you need to on this. I am hugely frustrated and am seeking not to address the results from last week but to try and make sure the event doesnt turn into a handicap based farce for next year.
Many of our club members are refusing to take part next year because of this, which would be a shame.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

The PY handicap system is a performance based one and your handicap should be altered race by race in a series to reflect your actual performance, though this is not always done. If you are unhappy with that sort of approach then you need to race IRC or find a club where they dont bother to alter the PY handicaps.

Your start figure per Byron is a calculated one. I believe the Byron numbers include spinnakers so if you arent declaring a spinnaker ( and its declaring that matters, not carrying, posessing or even being capable of using) then your handicap should be adjusted upwards by 4% to compensate. So your handicap committee are completely wrong if the spinny really was their reason for change.

Incidentally, there now is an official RYA handicap list that like Byron is calculated where actual performance data is not available. See this and click on the cruiser figures at the bottom.

Finally, the Byron numbers are not always right. With my boat I won a series when I first got her and the winning margin was too big even for me to believe. Turned out Byron had the wrong data and as soon as he got the right data and we got the right handicap we stopped winning. +

What is your boat?

P.S. If yours is a modern fin keel 31 foot cruising boat I would expect a handicap with spinny of around 950

 

[fireball]

Many of our club members are refusing to take part next year because of this, which would be a shame.

I take it it is your own club that has unilaterally changed your handicap.

In one design classes you normally get a single handicap for the whole fleet - regardless of what you actually (intend to) use. This is probably the fairest system because the good sailors always come at the front of the fleet. However, it does little to encourage the slower sailors or new to racing sailors. We did have a 'Personal Handicap' cup - which was presented to the helm who had improved the most throughout the year. It was based on retrospectively calculating each helms handicap so they all finished at the same time - and seeing who had improved theirs the most over the year. Unfortunately we don't do this any more - although it would be easy to re-instate.

Handicaps are only ever changed post race IF there has been an error or omission - usually this is a change of rig (dinghy classes). If you have been given a recognised handicap and are winning all the races then perhaps you should have a gentlemanly conversation with the club officials and accept a harder handicap - to give you more of a race as well as the others a chance - but in your case I wouldn't accept a post race change.

Clubs are there for the benefit of it's members - whilst not all members will agree with each decision made( or not made) - the majority should be in agreement.

If there is a significant number who wish to buoycott the race next year then 2 options spring to mind ...
1) Hold your own informal event - same day - synchronise watches and you can self start/finish and work out your own results ...
2) As a group take your concerns to the club committee.
Actually - there is a 3rd
3) As a group - raise your concerns at a General Meeting - in front of as many club members as possible - this is a higher risk category as you don't know if the majority agree with you, the committee or just don't care!

Option 1 - has the benefit of just being a "protest" - with any luck it'll be more popular than the club run event and is the proverbial 2 fingers to the race committee ...
Option 2 - is probably the most sensible approach - If the committee are not interested then you still have the option of 1 and/or 3

Of course - Option 4 is to join a club who do race fairly!

 

[nickfabbri]

My boat is a Hanse 320 with a shoal draft. I totally accept that with a spinnaker , the handicap of 960 is correct. I am not contesting that. However from looking at the handicaps, issued it would seem as if some of the boats are rated with spinnakers and some are rated without spinnakers.For example, I fail to see how a 38 ft Rival which sails as a cutter rig can sail off 991 while we sail of 960. The handicap would suggest that this boat is rated without a spinnaker ( as we were).

The link to the results is below. Coraphaena is by example the 38 ft Rival.

http://www.whitstable-cruising-club.co.uk/index.php?p=1_33_Swale-Regatta-Results-2011

I am trying to pull my own arguement apart by asking the forum to tell me that I am being a petulent child that shouldnt be contesting a result .If however the consensus is that all the handicaps should be standardised for sailing with spinnakers or without, and that the current handicaps shown really do show a problem, then I will make sure that next year we have a credible regatta.

 

[fireball]

My boat is a Hanse 320 with a shoal draft. I totally accept that with a spinnaker , the handicap of 960 is correct. I am not contesting that. However from looking at the handicaps, issued it would seem as if some of the boats are rated with spinnakers and some are rated without spinnakers.For example, I fail to see how a 38 ft Rival which sails as a cutter rig can sail off 991 while we sail of 960. The handicap would suggest that this boat is rated without a spinnaker ( as we were).

The link to the results is below. Coraphaena is by example the 38 ft Rival.

http://www.whitstable-cruising-club.co.uk/index.php?p=1_33_Swale-Regatta-Results-2011

I am trying to pull my own arguement apart by asking the forum to tell me that I am being a petulent child that shouldnt be contesting a result .If however the consensus is that all the handicaps should be standardised for sailing with spinnakers or without, and that the current handicaps shown really do show a problem, then I will make sure that next year we have a credible regatta.

Well - I suppose the argument could go along the lines of ...

you could have laminate sails - so we'll handicap for them
you could have carbon mast - so we'll handicap for them
you could have deep lead keel - so we'll handicap for them .....

at which point - to stand a chance of sailing to handicap you have to go out and purchase said items and use them when racing ...

As an aside - are you a **** hot racer - or were your competitors rubbish or just unlucky when you won by 30 minutes ...
If it's you (and your crew!) that are top ball - then I would expect you to be able to jump into another boat and be a top finisher in that too.
If it was down to rubbish competitors then what are you gaining by racing against them?
If it was down to a lucky break on the day (favourable windshift?) then no handicap is going to fix that ...

If your club allow variable handicaps so you can race to the equipment you have on the boat then you should be allowed to have a non-spinnaker handicap - provided you don't have a spinnaker!
Otherwise - it's just sour grapes - and if it's fixed so the person adjusting the handicap wins the regatta then that is (IMHO) race fixing and he should be disqualified - how on earth could he be considered an impartial officer?!

 

[Nudge]

Just had a quick look on the Clyde Yacht Club Association site - www.cyca-online.org.uk
The only Hansa that I could see listed was a 291 with a mins/hour handicap of 16.5
Rival 38 with a cutter rig was 16.75 meaning that the Hansa gives it time....

Not sure if that helps, but I would seriously expext the Hansa 320 to give the Rival quite a lot of time on Handicap.

Nudge

 

[scottie]

CYCA Hanse 320 14.75min 5007c n2 ie non standard 2 blade prop
Rival. 38 17.00min 1027
For what it's worth you can look up CYCA boats by type

 

[nickfabbri]

Just had a quick look on the Clyde Yacht Club Association site - www.cyca-online.org.uk
The only Hansa that I could see listed was a 291 with a mins/hour handicap of 16.5
Rival 38 with a cutter rig was 16.75 meaning that the Hansa gives it time....

Not sure if that helps, but I would seriously expext the Hansa 320 to give the Rival quite a lot of time on Handicap.

Nudge

I assume that the higher the figure for this system the "faster the potential" of the boat? Or have a got it backwards? As far as I can work out the Rival should be able to achive 9.5knts while I can get 7.2, According to the basic figures.

 

[fireball]

Not sure if that helps, but I would seriously expext the Hansa 320 to give the Rival quite a lot of time on Handicap.

Doesn't that depend on the rig/keel/prop and of course - spinnaker or not?

Ie - if the Hanse was white sailed shallow keel, 3 blade fixed against the Rival - all sails, long keel, folding then I'd expect the handicaps to be a little closer no ?

 

[nickfabbri]

In repsonse to the proximity of handicaps:

The Hanse 31.5 ft. White dacron, slab cut sails. 4.6ft shoal draft and a folding prop.

The Rival 38ft. Fin keel, tri radial dacron with a folding prop.

The race lasted for just over two hours. Now on paper, the Rival should thrash the Hanse as it has a bigger rig, an extra foresail. Neither of us flew spinnakers . I just figure that a bigger,deeper,longer boat should have a handicap that penalizes it more than the smaller cruising boat.
I know i am not taking into account displacement etc, so am just presenting the facts that I have.
I am also not picking on the Rival at all. It is just that I know the boat as it belongs to my friend.
Have I got all this wrong?

 

[scottie]

CYCA handicaps are a time deduction figure per hour ie the faster the boat the less time deducted and the lower the handicap

 

[maxi77]

Handicaping is a nightmare even when it is done in good faith, when it is done in smoky darkened committee rooms by a cabal it is deadly. Good fair transparent handicapping encourages racing, poor handicapping destroys racing, fact.

It seems something is not quite right here, and you are entitled to clear explanations on why the change was made (you should also be told who caused the changes to be made but that may not be forthcoming for reasons many can guess) if the explanations are not clear and justifiable then you should be able to appeal. Failing that mutiny.

 

[fireball]

The race lasted for just over two hours. Now on paper, the Rival should thrash the Hanse as it has a bigger rig, an extra foresail. Neither of us flew spinnakers .
Have I got all this wrong?

I don't pretend to know how they calculate yacht handicaps - dinghy handicaps are largely done on returned figures - ie we submit our handicap race results to the RYA and they combine them with any other returns and tweak handicaps accordingly ...
So you'll find that when the top sailors jump into a particular class, the handicap will get hammered ... the less popular boats - generally sailed by those who aren't into all out racing - get slightly more favourable handicaps.
It does seem to work quite well though ....

Subtle difference is that there are no (or none that I'm aware of!) variances for keel types or for 'not flying a kite when you could do' ..
There are some different handicaps for different rigs - eg Laser Radial or Standard or 4.7 etc.

Anyway - you should also consider the waterline and weight when looking at handicaps - whilst the Rival will sail well and probably faster in heavy weather, it will stick in lighter winds - despite the larger rig - generally because of the larger wetted area coupled with a short waterline length.
Your Hanse, on the otherhand - your waterline length is a considerable proportion of the overall length - and with a shoal keel you should go quite quickly in lighter winds - there will be a point when to windward you'll hobbyhorse in a chop and performance will drop off as the wind picks up - partly because of the lack of overhang and partly because of the shoal keel.
So - when setting a handicap you've got to look at both ends of the spectrum and set an average ... in dinghies we know that an RS800 will stick in a F1-2 and we may even beat it over the water in our book value slower RS400 - but in F3 or above they will start to shift - in F5 they can fly ...

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Have I got all this wrong?

Sorry to say so, but you have. The Rival will inevitably be a slower boat than you - maybe twice the weight, cutter rigged which is a disadvantage ( when did you last see a cutter rigged racing boat?) and a pretty old high drag hull design. It will go to windward like a brick privvy. And the Clyde handicaps confirm this - they say you should be giving him time ie that you are faster.

There is quite a bit of incorrect info in some of the above posts. The PY ie Byron handicap system is a performance based one and can even be adjusted to take account of crew skills. So for example, we have 2 Sigma 33s in our fleet. After lots of races one has a handicap of 937 whilst the other almost identical boat has 1009. Some difference in sails but the biggest influence is that one is consistently well sailed and the other is consistently inconsistent.

Going back to your first post, the protest you should make to your handicapper is that you didnt declare a spinnaker and therefore should not be penalised as if you had declared one. There is a standard spinny allowance in the PY system of 4% and you get that adjustment to your base handicap if you declare for a race or for a series that you arent using a spinny. You can still have all the gear on board by the way. Incidently, you should have a 1% penalty foir the folding prop and some sort of allowance for the shallow keel.

However, at the risk of being boring, your club should adjust the trial PY handicap number from Byron or the RYA to reflect actual performance and if thats what they have done then they are correct. There is a standard system for doing this - see the RYA site.

Final comment. The RYA figure for your boat is 1025. If that doesnt include a spinny ( they dont say) then your trial handicap should be 974 with spinny ans prop but no keel allowance.